Re: Russians: Are there 2 types?

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Posted by Theresa on July 19, 2001 at 01:13:01:

In Reply to: Russians: Are there 2 types? posted by zab on July 17, 2001 at 22:58:05:

: I have 3 russians and one is the 'large type" and two are the "new small type'. Are there really two types? The large one is adult and about 7 inches long. The others are adults and only about 4 inches. What do you think??

Hi good question :)
I saved this info from a thread on the Russian Tortoise list on Ygroups.

Can you tell me where to find the two articles by Chkhikvadze? I
think that the subject of subspecies of russians is really
interesting. I located an article on the internet at the following
site that has a wonderful article describing 5 different subspecies.

http://www.landschildkroeten.com/Testudo_horsfieldii.html

The article is written in German but I used one of the internet
translation systems (http://world.altavista.com/) and was able to
pretty much understand the whole article. It has a nice picture of
each subspecies and a colored map of their location of origin.

I'm wondering if we shouldn't make an effort with our captive
breeding to only breed like subspecies to one another.

Becky.
<~~~>x<�>x<~~~>x<�>x<~~~>x<�>x<~~~>

Well I am not Andy - but perhaps I can help? Te folowwing from
correspondence
with Jarmo Perala -

There seems to be quite dramatic variation of morphology within populations
of
T. horsfieldii complex tortoises in the North-South axis of the
distribution,
and the nominate subspecies T. h. horsfieldii (or Agrionemys h. horsfieldii
by
most Eurasian authors) from Central Afghanistan is readily distinguished
from
the northern T. h. kazachstanica and T. h. rustamovi. The two last mentioned
share superficially many features with each other, but osteologically they
seem
to be relatively distinct.

The authors of the recently described subspecies (T. h. k.Chkhikvadze 1988
and
T. h. r. Chkhikvadze & al. 1990) are unfortunately not in the position to
delimit the distributions of the respective taxa, but T.h.k. occurs at least
in
Kazakstan and the Karakalpakstan "autonomic" region of Uzbekistan, whereas
T.
h. r. is described from SW Turkmenistan. T. horsfieldii is also known from
Tadjikistan, Kirgystan, NE-E Iran, and the western Xinjian Province of
China.

Here are just some characters to distinguis between the three subspecies,
according to papers by Chkhikvadze (and Co.) + enhanced by my observations
on
museum specimens and live captives:

Thh
Thk Thr

crown carapace moderately flat clearly convex arch
domed

post. carapace curvature (laterally) abrupt abrupt moderate

nodules on vertebrals yes
no yes
+ costals form of these nodules flat pyramid --- dome

projected supracaudal no
no yes

basic carapace color (excluding markings) brown/ greenish
yellowish horn

scutes with ray pattern yes
no no

Habitat may be different but there are hardly any decent published data
on
the species' ecology from areas outside the former Soviet Union, in which
last
mentioned part of the distribution the horsfieldii are said to remain active
only 3-4 months a year (whole of spring, briefly in autumn; most part of
year
in hibernation and estivation). However, populations from certain parts of
the
range, e.g., Pakistan, do not possibly (= are not able to) hibernate at all
due
to local climatic conditions.

Having said that, almost all captive horsfieldii seem to be either T.
h.kazachstanica (vast majority) or T. h. rustamovi which both hibernate
naturally, and the nominate form from more southern parts of Asia are VERY
rare
exceptions in collections. Personally, I've NEVER seen a living
Afghan/Pakistani T. horsfieldii in the 25 or so years I've dealt with this
species (I know the nominate subspecies from museum specimens and
illustrations
only). Curiously, the individual depicted in Ernst & Barbour from 1989
seems
to be a
Southerner...

Darrell
--
Darrell Senneke, Director - Tortoise Trust USA
mailto:rednine@earthlink.net
Tortoise Trust Home Page - http://www.tortoisetrust.org
Hatchling Haven web site - http://home.earthlink.net/~rednine/
<~~~>x<�>x<~~~>x<�>x<~~~>x<�>x<~~~>
I didn't even realize there were 3 subspecies but here they are.
Ed

Species:
Agrionemys horsfieldii

Synonyms:
Testudo horsfieldii GRAY 1844
Homopus burnesii BLYTH 1854
Testudo baluchiorum ANNANDALE 1906
Agrionemys horsfieldii - OBST 1985
Agrionemys horsfieldi - ENGELMANN et al 1993
Testudo horsfieldii - XIANGKUI 1994
Testudo horsfieldii - DAS 1996: 39

Subspecies:
Testudo horsfieldii horsfieldii GRAY 1844
Testudo horsfieldii kazachstanica
Testudo horsfieldii rustamovi

Family:
Testudinidae, Testudines (turtles)

Distribution:
SE Russia (from the Caspian Sea southward),
Armenia, Azerbaijan, S Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan,
Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan,
N/E Iran, Afghanistan, N Pakistan, N/W Baluchistan, NW China

Terra typica: Afghanistan

Comment:
Holotype: BMNH 1947.3.4.3.

photo: http://www.tortoise.org/gallery.html
info: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/horsfield2.html
photo: http://www.kz/eng/animals/desert.htmlphoto:
http://www.tortoise.org/gallery.html
info: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/horsfield2.html
photo: http://www.kz/eng/animals/desert.html

References:
Ernst,C.H. and Barbour,R.W. 1989
Turtles of the World
Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington D.C. - London

Gray, J.E. 1844
Catalogue of Tortoises, Crocodilians, and Amphisbaenians in the Collection
of the British Museum.
British Museum (Natural History), London. viii + 80 p.

Obst, F.J. 1986
Turtles, tortoises and terrapins.
St. Martins, New York. 231 pp.

Xiangkui-Y 1994
Fossil and recent turtles of China.
Science Press, Beijing. 1994: i-vi, 1-112

Engelmann,W.E. et al. 1993
Lurche und Kriechtiere Europas
Neumann Verlag (Radebeul, Germany), 440 pp.

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Comments:
: : I have 3 russians and one is the 'large type" and two are the "new small type'. Are there really two types? The large one is adult and about 7 inches long. The others are adults and only about 4 inches. What do you think?? : Hi good question :) : I saved this info from a thread on the Russian Tortoise list on Ygroups. : Can you tell me where to find the two articles by Chkhikvadze? I : think that the subject of subspecies of russians is really : interesting. I located an article on the internet at the following : site that has a wonderful article describing 5 different subspecies. : http://www.landschildkroeten.com/Testudo_horsfieldii.html : The article is written in German but I used one of the internet : translation systems (http://world.altavista.com/) and was able to : pretty much understand the whole article. It has a nice picture of : each subspecies and a colored map of their location of origin. : I'm wondering if we shouldn't make an effort with our captive : breeding to only breed like subspecies to one another. : Becky. : <~~~>x<�>x<~~~>x<�>x<~~~>x<�>x<~~~> : Well I am not Andy - but perhaps I can help? Te folowwing from : correspondence : with Jarmo Perala - : There seems to be quite dramatic variation of morphology within populations : of : T. horsfieldii complex tortoises in the North-South axis of the : distribution, : and the nominate subspecies T. h. horsfieldii (or Agrionemys h. horsfieldii : by : most Eurasian authors) from Central Afghanistan is readily distinguished : from : the northern T. h. kazachstanica and T. h. rustamovi. The two last mentioned : share superficially many features with each other, but osteologically they : seem : to be relatively distinct. : The authors of the recently described subspecies (T. h. k.Chkhikvadze 1988 : and : T. h. r. Chkhikvadze & al. 1990) are unfortunately not in the position to : delimit the distributions of the respective taxa, but T.h.k. occurs at least : in : Kazakstan and the Karakalpakstan "autonomic" region of Uzbekistan, whereas : T. : h. r. is described from SW Turkmenistan. T. horsfieldii is also known from : Tadjikistan, Kirgystan, NE-E Iran, and the western Xinjian Province of : China. : Here are just some characters to distinguis between the three subspecies, : according to papers by Chkhikvadze (and Co.) + enhanced by my observations : on : museum specimens and live captives: : Thh : Thk Thr : crown carapace moderately flat clearly convex arch : domed : post. carapace curvature (laterally) abrupt abrupt moderate : nodules on vertebrals yes : no yes : + costals form of these nodules flat pyramid --- dome : projected supracaudal no : no yes : basic carapace color (excluding markings) brown/ greenish : yellowish horn : scutes with ray pattern yes : no no : Habitat may be different but there are hardly any decent published data : on : the species' ecology from areas outside the former Soviet Union, in which : last : mentioned part of the distribution the horsfieldii are said to remain active : only 3-4 months a year (whole of spring, briefly in autumn; most part of : year : in hibernation and estivation). However, populations from certain parts of : the : range, e.g., Pakistan, do not possibly (= are not able to) hibernate at all : due : to local climatic conditions. : Having said that, almost all captive horsfieldii seem to be either T. : h.kazachstanica (vast majority) or T. h. rustamovi which both hibernate : naturally, and the nominate form from more southern parts of Asia are VERY : rare : exceptions in collections. Personally, I've NEVER seen a living : Afghan/Pakistani T. horsfieldii in the 25 or so years I've dealt with this : species (I know the nominate subspecies from museum specimens and : illustrations : only). Curiously, the individual depicted in Ernst & Barbour from 1989 : seems : to be a : Southerner... : Darrell : -- : Darrell Senneke, Director - Tortoise Trust USA : mailto:rednine@earthlink.net : Tortoise Trust Home Page - http://www.tortoisetrust.org : Hatchling Haven web site - http://home.earthlink.net/~rednine/ : <~~~>x<�>x<~~~>x<�>x<~~~>x<�>x<~~~> : I didn't even realize there were 3 subspecies but here they are. : Ed : Species: : Agrionemys horsfieldii : Synonyms: : Testudo horsfieldii GRAY 1844 : Homopus burnesii BLYTH 1854 : Testudo baluchiorum ANNANDALE 1906 : Agrionemys horsfieldii - OBST 1985 : Agrionemys horsfieldi - ENGELMANN et al 1993 : Testudo horsfieldii - XIANGKUI 1994 : Testudo horsfieldii - DAS 1996: 39 : Subspecies: : Testudo horsfieldii horsfieldii GRAY 1844 : Testudo horsfieldii kazachstanica : Testudo horsfieldii rustamovi : Family: : Testudinidae, Testudines (turtles) : Distribution: : SE Russia (from the Caspian Sea southward), : Armenia, Azerbaijan, S Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, : Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, : N/E Iran, Afghanistan, N Pakistan, N/W Baluchistan, NW China : Terra typica: Afghanistan : Comment: : Holotype: BMNH 1947.3.4.3. : photo: http://www.tortoise.org/gallery.html : info: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/horsfield2.html : photo: http://www.kz/eng/animals/desert.htmlphoto: : http://www.tortoise.org/gallery.html : info: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/horsfield2.html : photo: http://www.kz/eng/animals/desert.html : References: : Ernst,C.H. and Barbour,R.W. 1989 : Turtles of the World : Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington D.C. - London : Gray, J.E. 1844 : Catalogue of Tortoises, Crocodilians, and Amphisbaenians in the Collection : of the British Museum. : British Museum (Natural History), London. viii + 80 p. : Obst, F.J. 1986 : Turtles, tortoises and terrapins. : St. Martins, New York. 231 pp. : Xiangkui-Y 1994 : Fossil and recent turtles of China. : Science Press, Beijing. 1994: i-vi, 1-112 : Engelmann,W.E. et al. 1993 : Lurche und Kriechtiere Europas : Neumann Verlag (Radebeul, Germany), 440 pp.

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