Re: "Help with Burmese Brown Tort.

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Posted by Richard Fife on April 28, 2001 at 10:34:08:

In Reply to: "Help with Burmese Brown Tort. posted by Shirley on April 28, 2001 at 08:54:08:

Burmese mountain tortoise should be kept about the same as red-foot or yellow-foot tortoises. They do not burrow but do hid under debris and leaf litter. They grow to 18 to 26 inches depending on the subspecies. My largest female was 25-inches and weighed 80 pounds. They are very slow growing. Following are some excerpts from e-mails I have sent to other people interested in this species. I have kept this species for over 27 years and have bred them.

It is very important that you know if you have Manouria emys emys or Manouria emys phayrei. Emys should not be hibernated. Phayrei can be hibernated (between 40 and 50 degrees for about 3 months) but it doesn't seem necessary for reproduction.. M. e. phayrei is very difficult to sex (extremely difficult at 12 inches) and probably isn't sexually mature until about 15 inches or more (none of my females produced eggs until they were over 16 inches). M. e. emys may be mature at 12 to 14 inches.

Most of my experience is with M. e. phayrei. To determine what subspecies check the pectoral scutes. In M. e. emys the pectorals extend less than half way from the "arm pit" toward the center of the plastron. In M. e. phayrei the pectorals extend from the "arm pit" all the way to the center of the plastron and abut the pectoral from the other side.

It seems that this species needs a large area with sunny and shady areas (they are very particular about where they want to nest so need a lot of area to choose from). I would give them as much area as you can. They may not use the entire area but at least they will have the option to choose a nesting site. A pen that is at least 2,500 square feet may be necessary. They can be kept in an area much smaller than this but you might not get nesting. I don't have any idea how small an area a female needs. If you see that a female isn't satisfied with the place she has (nests are not completed) then give them more space.

There needs to be lots of debris and plant material for nest building, and their pen should not be disturbed once nesting begins. They also like to hide under debris such as mulch and leaves. They also enjoy a large shallow pond of water. Once they have been treated for parasites they tend to do very well and are a very nice tortoise.

It is really hard to say which subspecies is imported most often. It is more likely that M. e. emys is the more common subspecies imported. M. e. phayrei is from the northern part of the range which includes parts of India, Burma, and central Thailand. Burma and India don't issue permits to export their tortoises (I'm not sure about Thailand). Any tortoises from Burma and India have to be smuggled south and then represented as coming from the local area (where M.e.phayrei is not found).

M. e. emys comes from southern Thailand, Malaysia, Sumatra, Borneo, and other Indonesian Islands. M. e. emys would probably be the most readily available. Most officials probably couldn't identify either subspecies so both would be shipped to the USA.

It is possible that they actually represent two distinct species. M. e. phayrei was originally described in 1853 but this information was not well known and didn't find its way into any of the popular turtle and tortoise literature. In fact Pritchard's 1979 book "Encyclopedia of Turtles" has a picture described as the "Plastral view of the Burmese brown tortoise" which in fact is that of the southern race (M. e. emys) which is not even found in Burma.

Most of the collectors and dealers were aware that there was a blond phase Burmese Mountain Tortoises, but didn't suspect that they were dealing with two subspecies. Most of the Asian tortoises were being exported out of Thailand at that time. It wasn't until 1979 when Wirot Nutaphand published his book "The Turtles of Thailand" that attention was draw to his description of two separate species. One he called Testudo emys and the other Testudo nutapundi (named after himself). In 1983 the genus was changed from Geochelone to Manouria and the 1853 description and name of the subspecies phayrei was reestablished.

I hope some of this information may be helpful to you.

Richard Fife

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Thanks allot Richard you've been a big help n/m Shirley Boggess 04/28/01 (0)

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: Burmese mountain tortoise should be kept about the same as red-foot or yellow-foot tortoises. They do not burrow but do hid under debris and leaf litter. They grow to 18 to 26 inches depending on the subspecies. My largest female was 25-inches and weighed 80 pounds. They are very slow growing. Following are some excerpts from e-mails I have sent to other people interested in this species. I have kept this species for over 27 years and have bred them. : It is very important that you know if you have Manouria emys emys or Manouria emys phayrei. Emys should not be hibernated. Phayrei can be hibernated (between 40 and 50 degrees for about 3 months) but it doesn't seem necessary for reproduction.. M. e. phayrei is very difficult to sex (extremely difficult at 12 inches) and probably isn't sexually mature until about 15 inches or more (none of my females produced eggs until they were over 16 inches). M. e. emys may be mature at 12 to 14 inches. : Most of my experience is with M. e. phayrei. To determine what subspecies check the pectoral scutes. In M. e. emys the pectorals extend less than half way from the "arm pit" toward the center of the plastron. In M. e. phayrei the pectorals extend from the "arm pit" all the way to the center of the plastron and abut the pectoral from the other side. : It seems that this species needs a large area with sunny and shady areas (they are very particular about where they want to nest so need a lot of area to choose from). I would give them as much area as you can. They may not use the entire area but at least they will have the option to choose a nesting site. A pen that is at least 2,500 square feet may be necessary. They can be kept in an area much smaller than this but you might not get nesting. I don't have any idea how small an area a female needs. If you see that a female isn't satisfied with the place she has (nests are not completed) then give them more space. : There needs to be lots of debris and plant material for nest building, and their pen should not be disturbed once nesting begins. They also like to hide under debris such as mulch and leaves. They also enjoy a large shallow pond of water. Once they have been treated for parasites they tend to do very well and are a very nice tortoise. : : It is really hard to say which subspecies is imported most often. It is more likely that M. e. emys is the more common subspecies imported. M. e. phayrei is from the northern part of the range which includes parts of India, Burma, and central Thailand. Burma and India don't issue permits to export their tortoises (I'm not sure about Thailand). Any tortoises from Burma and India have to be smuggled south and then represented as coming from the local area (where M.e.phayrei is not found). : M. e. emys comes from southern Thailand, Malaysia, Sumatra, Borneo, and other Indonesian Islands. M. e. emys would probably be the most readily available. Most officials probably couldn't identify either subspecies so both would be shipped to the USA. : It is possible that they actually represent two distinct species. M. e. phayrei was originally described in 1853 but this information was not well known and didn't find its way into any of the popular turtle and tortoise literature. In fact Pritchard's 1979 book "Encyclopedia of Turtles" has a picture described as the "Plastral view of the Burmese brown tortoise" which in fact is that of the southern race (M. e. emys) which is not even found in Burma. : Most of the collectors and dealers were aware that there was a blond phase Burmese Mountain Tortoises, but didn't suspect that they were dealing with two subspecies. Most of the Asian tortoises were being exported out of Thailand at that time. It wasn't until 1979 when Wirot Nutaphand published his book "The Turtles of Thailand" that attention was draw to his description of two separate species. One he called Testudo emys and the other Testudo nutapundi (named after himself). In 1983 the genus was changed from Geochelone to Manouria and the 1853 description and name of the subspecies phayrei was reestablished. : I hope some of this information may be helpful to you. : Richard Fife

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