Re: Anne Lancaster Tortoise Aid

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Posted by Annie Lancaster-TortoiseAid on January 25, 2001 at 04:42:20:

In Reply to: Re: Anne Lancaster Tortoise Aid posted by James B. on January 24, 2001 at 11:57:42:

: Im in Placerville Ca. just at the base of the mountains, in the foothills. We can have harsh cold winters, but then again so can the desert.

:and spring and fall have mid 80's with some chilly nights dropping into the 30's at times. But then again ive been in the mojave in spring and fall and it can get dang nippy.

Yes, we do have cold winters here, but DRY winters...we have had less than 1/2 inch of rain since LAST YEAR...relative humidity is very low. It is this type of environmental control that you cannot replicate for this animal, no matter how hard you try, or whether it is indoors or outdoors. This is a DESERT animal, and you are living at the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountains.

:But that is what i was wondering about ways to pre build a burrow to make it easy access to bring in , in the :winter months when it gets rainy. and/or if they would use it, if i built it.

OK...pull up a chair..this is gonna take a bit of explaining. Moving a desert tortoise FROM an area which has *much* lower relative humidity and less than 3-4 inches of rainfall per YEAR, to a climate which has not extremely high, but considerably higher humidity than the single digit humidity we have here...and has over 40 inches of annual rainfall, to be perfectly honest is going to place that little tortoise basically headed straight for disaster.

I've been to Placerville, numerous times. The soil, humidity in the soil, and weather patterns are very different. (I've gone herp hunting around there...lots of neat lizards/frogs) It is not a desert climate. Not even bordering on one. Yes, the elevations are similar, and we are even higher in elevation than Placerville by nearly 1200 or more feet...but just because it gets cold in the desert in the winter time up there...as well as warm in the summer months..does not make these two climates even remotely similar.

Placerville, yes, can get hot in the summer, but with that heat comes humidity. Not humidity that would necessarily bother a human, (except for me, I am accustomed to bone dry heat) but to an animal relocated from arid San Berdoo (even if kept indoors thusfar) which relies on ARID conditions in which to maintain health, with slightly higher humidity within the burrows they need, no matter what you do is going to be TOO DAMP. This is a perfect recipe for pneumonia, shell rot, and other health problems (including and most often, death)

I would NOT place a desert tortoise already living in and accustomed to arid San Bernardino into this environment under any circumstances. In fact, my local Fish and Game warden would most probably seriously question my abilities and judgement as a rehabilitator if I was to even consider it...and then would send me off to have my head examined. (If it was a tortoise here, there is NO way I'd ever consider it. This basically constitutes signing a death warrant for the little tyke) I have had people become incredibly angry with me for refusing to place a desert tortoise with them, they feel they have the right "because they live in California." I think of the true long term welfare of the animal FIRST and foremost. A lot of people do NOT like what I have to say, but so be it, I have my own conscience to live with, and know these animals very, very well, both in the wild as well as in captivity. They also do not belong anywhere near the beach!!

: The summer months range from mid 90's to 103,

But...what about humidity? This is THE most important thing to consider. Average temps here (native habitat) in the summer average anywhere from 90 to 124 degrees during daylight hours. At night they don't often fall below 75 to 80F. It is *bone* dry.

The tortoises estivate in burrows to escape the heat...and there is slightly higher humidity with in them. A burrow for a desert tortoise places in an area with higher humidity is going to result in too much humidity in the burrow. Especially at night!! The tortoises move up and down in the borrows to find the suitable temperature/humidity they need to maintain peak health. At times they'll sit near the burrow entrance, at other times, they're 10 or more feet down...burrows slope, have areas dug into the sides of them quite often, etc.

:i should have no problem keeping the humidty low. Since i deal with aboreal snakes that need high :humidity and have no problem maintaining humidity. I have some custom tanks that im making that are fully :enclosed with vents that can be adjusted which makes habititat real easy to maintain and adjust.

Even indoors, the humidity in the air is going to be much higher than what this tortoise is already accustomed to. Maintaining higher humidity...yes, we can all obtain that, but DECREASING humidity is much more a struggle...and when this tortoise is outdoors, you will not be able to have any control whatsoever. Can you maintain humidity in the single digits constantly...while still providing a proper temperature gradient AND provide natural sunlight? This is a tough species to care for...even within it's own habitat at times. I can't replicate that indoors even living here.

:So that leaves light. Can i use a combo of any UV lights to simulate sun in the early spring and late fall :when its indoors for the first few years. I was planning on letting it out in the summer months. But in early :
:spring and lete fall was worried about it being to moist when their shells are not hardend yet

UV indoor light does not come remotely close to the UV index which exists within this animal's native environment, and many people have considerable trouble (see attached picture) keeping juveniles housed indoors. Even with good light, and Calcium D3 supplementation...MBD is VERY COMMON and quite severe. These animals need the benefit of the sunlight in which they have become genetically accustomed to. There are reasons Desert tortoises are not native to the Sierra Nevada foothills. This picture is of a desert tortoise, a juvenile, 3 years old, which was taken out of the area...the caretaker thought it would be "just fine" inside, in a vivarium with UV lights, and this was further south than you live.

This animal is a mess. Metabolic Bone Disease, bladder stones, chronic problems with both sinus infections, as well as pneumonia, and mouth rot

: But i was thinking about keeping it in a tank 24x48x18h for the first 2 years or so,

Please look at the photo and reconsider.

: Also what do use to increase your hatch rates.

I do not breed tortoises on purpose, many of the females which come in are gravid already. It is actually *illegal* to breed desert tortoises in California. To be honest that 's the last thing I want to do...I have enough needy adults coming through here and I don't need hatchlings on top of that. I do get them, from people who think they're going to "Save" the Desert tortoise by breeding...thinking that the babies can "someday be released to the wild." (which is a felony) Many of the juveniles...even if kept in this climate have been kept indoors and are a veterinary nightmare.

:We are thinking some of the sand he had left over is what they used, but are not sure. Could he make a :sand box or a mulch box for them to lay in. And/or would they use it if he put soemthing in like that. What :are you experiances with it.

Female CDT's are picky critters...they'll sniff forever before finding a suitable nesting area..and every one of them is different. Sometimes they'll lay their clutch near the entrance of their burrows, other times near the base of creosote bushes...or a large area of clumping native grasses. They search for an area which has a fair amount of protection, but not too much...the sniffing is to determine temperature, etc. of the soil. They are incredibly smart about not laying eggs in areas which get too much sun which would bake the eggs, and too little , which doesn't keep them warm enough. They are amongst the pickiest tortoises I've ever seen when it comes to nest digging and laying eggs, they all dig test nests, which they abandon...they're prefectionists. With this harsh habitat they have to be. Even in captivity, they do not lose these instincts. It's difficult to say what is best for a gravid female, not being able to see where she is...and her surroundings etc.

Ya know...you ARE in a perfect location for box turtles though...you might want to consider adopting a few from a turtle/tortoise club, or purchasing captive bred babies. They are fascinating, colorful, and can tolerate the type of climate you have. In fact, they'd most likely thrive in it...

Regards,

Annie

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: : : Im in Placerville Ca. just at the base of the mountains, in the foothills. We can have harsh cold winters, but then again so can the desert. : :and spring and fall have mid 80's with some chilly nights dropping into the 30's at times. But then again ive been in the mojave in spring and fall and it can get dang nippy. : Yes, we do have cold winters here, but DRY winters...we have had less than 1/2 inch of rain since LAST YEAR...relative humidity is very low. It is this type of environmental control that you cannot replicate for this animal, no matter how hard you try, or whether it is indoors or outdoors. This is a DESERT animal, and you are living at the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountains. : :But that is what i was wondering about ways to pre build a burrow to make it easy access to bring in , in the :winter months when it gets rainy. and/or if they would use it, if i built it. : OK...pull up a chair..this is gonna take a bit of explaining. Moving a desert tortoise FROM an area which has *much* lower relative humidity and less than 3-4 inches of rainfall per YEAR, to a climate which has not extremely high, but considerably higher humidity than the single digit humidity we have here...and has over 40 inches of annual rainfall, to be perfectly honest is going to place that little tortoise basically headed straight for disaster. : I've been to Placerville, numerous times. The soil, humidity in the soil, and weather patterns are very different. (I've gone herp hunting around there...lots of neat lizards/frogs) It is not a desert climate. Not even bordering on one. Yes, the elevations are similar, and we are even higher in elevation than Placerville by nearly 1200 or more feet...but just because it gets cold in the desert in the winter time up there...as well as warm in the summer months..does not make these two climates even remotely similar. : Placerville, yes, can get hot in the summer, but with that heat comes humidity. Not humidity that would necessarily bother a human, (except for me, I am accustomed to bone dry heat) but to an animal relocated from arid San Berdoo (even if kept indoors thusfar) which relies on ARID conditions in which to maintain health, with slightly higher humidity within the burrows they need, no matter what you do is going to be TOO DAMP. This is a perfect recipe for pneumonia, shell rot, and other health problems (including and most often, death) : I would NOT place a desert tortoise already living in and accustomed to arid San Bernardino into this environment under any circumstances. In fact, my local Fish and Game warden would most probably seriously question my abilities and judgement as a rehabilitator if I was to even consider it...and then would send me off to have my head examined. (If it was a tortoise here, there is NO way I'd ever consider it. This basically constitutes signing a death warrant for the little tyke) I have had people become incredibly angry with me for refusing to place a desert tortoise with them, they feel they have the right "because they live in California." I think of the true long term welfare of the animal FIRST and foremost. A lot of people do NOT like what I have to say, but so be it, I have my own conscience to live with, and know these animals very, very well, both in the wild as well as in captivity. They also do not belong anywhere near the beach!! : : The summer months range from mid 90's to 103, : But...what about humidity? This is THE most important thing to consider. Average temps here (native habitat) in the summer average anywhere from 90 to 124 degrees during daylight hours. At night they don't often fall below 75 to 80F. It is *bone* dry. : The tortoises estivate in burrows to escape the heat...and there is slightly higher humidity with in them. A burrow for a desert tortoise places in an area with higher humidity is going to result in too much humidity in the burrow. Especially at night!! The tortoises move up and down in the borrows to find the suitable temperature/humidity they need to maintain peak health. At times they'll sit near the burrow entrance, at other times, they're 10 or more feet down...burrows slope, have areas dug into the sides of them quite often, etc. : :i should have no problem keeping the humidty low. Since i deal with aboreal snakes that need high :humidity and have no problem maintaining humidity. I have some custom tanks that im making that are fully :enclosed with vents that can be adjusted which makes habititat real easy to maintain and adjust. : Even indoors, the humidity in the air is going to be much higher than what this tortoise is already accustomed to. Maintaining higher humidity...yes, we can all obtain that, but DECREASING humidity is much more a struggle...and when this tortoise is outdoors, you will not be able to have any control whatsoever. Can you maintain humidity in the single digits constantly...while still providing a proper temperature gradient AND provide natural sunlight? This is a tough species to care for...even within it's own habitat at times. I can't replicate that indoors even living here. : :So that leaves light. Can i use a combo of any UV lights to simulate sun in the early spring and late fall :when its indoors for the first few years. I was planning on letting it out in the summer months. But in early : : :spring and lete fall was worried about it being to moist when their shells are not hardend yet : UV indoor light does not come remotely close to the UV index which exists within this animal's native environment, and many people have considerable trouble (see attached picture) keeping juveniles housed indoors. Even with good light, and Calcium D3 supplementation...MBD is VERY COMMON and quite severe. These animals need the benefit of the sunlight in which they have become genetically accustomed to. There are reasons Desert tortoises are not native to the Sierra Nevada foothills. This picture is of a desert tortoise, a juvenile, 3 years old, which was taken out of the area...the caretaker thought it would be "just fine" inside, in a vivarium with UV lights, and this was further south than you live. : This animal is a mess. Metabolic Bone Disease, bladder stones, chronic problems with both sinus infections, as well as pneumonia, and mouth rot : : But i was thinking about keeping it in a tank 24x48x18h for the first 2 years or so, : Please look at the photo and reconsider. : : Also what do use to increase your hatch rates. : I do not breed tortoises on purpose, many of the females which come in are gravid already. It is actually *illegal* to breed desert tortoises in California. To be honest that 's the last thing I want to do...I have enough needy adults coming through here and I don't need hatchlings on top of that. I do get them, from people who think they're going to "Save" the Desert tortoise by breeding...thinking that the babies can "someday be released to the wild." (which is a felony) Many of the juveniles...even if kept in this climate have been kept indoors and are a veterinary nightmare. : :We are thinking some of the sand he had left over is what they used, but are not sure. Could he make a :sand box or a mulch box for them to lay in. And/or would they use it if he put soemthing in like that. What :are you experiances with it. : Female CDT's are picky critters...they'll sniff forever before finding a suitable nesting area..and every one of them is different. Sometimes they'll lay their clutch near the entrance of their burrows, other times near the base of creosote bushes...or a large area of clumping native grasses. They search for an area which has a fair amount of protection, but not too much...the sniffing is to determine temperature, etc. of the soil. They are incredibly smart about not laying eggs in areas which get too much sun which would bake the eggs, and too little , which doesn't keep them warm enough. They are amongst the pickiest tortoises I've ever seen when it comes to nest digging and laying eggs, they all dig test nests, which they abandon...they're prefectionists. With this harsh habitat they have to be. Even in captivity, they do not lose these instincts. It's difficult to say what is best for a gravid female, not being able to see where she is...and her surroundings etc. : Ya know...you ARE in a perfect location for box turtles though...you might want to consider adopting a few from a turtle/tortoise club, or purchasing captive bred babies. They are fascinating, colorful, and can tolerate the type of climate you have. In fact, they'd most likely thrive in it... : Regards, : Annie

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