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Posted by JamesMM on January 12, 2001 at 16:04:32:

In Reply to: Sulcata temp requirements/Ownership rights posted by Jerry Fife on January 11, 2001 at 23:18:26:

: I have read with interst several recent posts and thought I would make a few comments on temperature ranges for African Spurred Tortoises and ownership issues. On the question of temperatures for African Spurred Tortoises, I provide the following observation.

: African Spurred Tortoises (G. sulcata) can handle a much wider temperature range than generally reported. The temperatures generally recommended by various individuals or organizations are "ideal" temperatures under captive conditions. I agree that hatchlings should be kept at a temperature in the 80s, with a slight drop being acceptable at night, however they can handle a much wider range of temps. They will not grow as fast or be as active in cooler temperatures, but they can handle much colder temps, especially if allowed to warm up during the day.

: I have a group of over a dozen adult African Spurred Tortoises that are kept outside, year round, with temperatures that range from a low of approximately 25 degrees to a high over 120 degrees. (The coolest daytime highs are in the 40s) They have no supplemental heat, but they do have shallow burrows protected by thick grasses or bushes that provide them protection from the heat/cold/rain. They come out and bask if the sun is out, even when high temperatures are only 50-60 degrees. I keep hatchlings inside until they are about four inches and then they are moved outside. I may bring the four-inch tortoises inside if it is predicted to be extremely cold or wet, but I have had four-inch tortoises outside the past two winter, and of course the summers.

: The adult tortoises have lived this way for years. I have never had one die, they produce each year and they have never required veterinary care. These tortoises are extremely hearty, which is one of the reasons they are so popular. To kill one of these tortoises, one must make a serious mistake for an extended period of time. In Arizona or other warm climates they are very easy to care for, in cold climates, additional care is required but they can be kept successfully.

: On the comment that people in cold climates should not have these "large" tortoises, I agree only if the person is not willing or capable of caring for it. Many people on this forum spend much more money on their tortoises than I would. If they are willing to provide the care and spend the money, they should be allowed to have the tortoise. I would not choose to keep a sulcata in a cold climate, but then I have not chosen to live in a cold climate. I know people that have built greenhouses for their tortoises and spend big bucks heating it in the winter.

: I think the "question" is one of information. Does the person know what they are getting into? Did the seller inform the buyer of the potential size and care requirements. If the person makes an informed decision, I think it is their right to purchase a sulcata, even if they live in Alaska. I would recommend that they consider a smaller species, but with the proper care it could be done. ( Some of the best rainforest and desert exhibits are in cold climates, proves it can be done.)

: There are many unwanted pets; dogs, cats, horses, etc. many do not receive the proper care and tortoises are no exception. While there is no "dog pound" for tortoises, there are thousands of people willing to take or buy unwanted tortoises. People often talk of the many African Spurred tortoises that are imported annually. Fortunately for wild populations, sulcatas are no longer imported, but the demand remains. This demand can be met through adoptions, breeders, etc. (If anyone has an unwanted tortoise, mention it on the forum and you will be inundated with request) There is nothing wrong with a person enjoying the experience of keeping a sulcata for a few years and then giving it a new home, if they can no longer care for it.

: I would guarantee over the past few years that more Russian torotises have died in the U.S. than African Spurred tortoises. Does this mean that people should not purchase Russion tortoises? No, the problem is information, not size. Once acclimated a Russian tortoise is a great choice. The problem is that Russians are imported and sold at low prices. The cheaper something is, the less value many people place on it. No animal should be considered an expendable pet. If people spent a few more dollars for a captive Russian tortoise, the survival rate in captivity would be much higher.

: It wasn't long ago that sulcatas were unavailable in the U.S. When they were first imported they demanded high prices. Thanks to individuals that breed sulcatas, many people that never dreamed of being able to afford a sulcata can. I don't want to remove the dream. It is surprising that there are so many people that truely love and care for their torotises. We may not do everything correct, but our knowledge on all tortoise species and their captive reqquirements has grown significantly over the past few years because of the people that care. Much of the knowledge is not coming from zoo's or scientists, but from individuals that have dedicated their lives to caring for their pet. Sometimes we learn from our mistakes, but we have more knowledge available than ever before. In the long run this knowledge should benefit our tortoises.

: Captive breeding of sulcatas may be the only thing that saves this tortoise from extinction. If it weren't for the captive breeding in the U.S., this tortoise could possibly become extinct. Based on population estimates, there may be more African Spurred tortoises in the U.S. than in Africa!

: Everyones time, money and care have ensured that this species will be around for future generations to see and enjoy. It's not perfect but then we don't treat each other perfect either.

: This is getting way too long and I'm starting to get too philosophical, so I will end.

: Happy New Year and I hope everyone keeps exploring new ways to improve the life of our tortoises, for they truly make our lives better.

: Jerry Fife

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: : I have read with interst several recent posts and thought I would make a few comments on temperature ranges for African Spurred Tortoises and ownership issues. On the question of temperatures for African Spurred Tortoises, I provide the following observation. : : African Spurred Tortoises (G. sulcata) can handle a much wider temperature range than generally reported. The temperatures generally recommended by various individuals or organizations are "ideal" temperatures under captive conditions. I agree that hatchlings should be kept at a temperature in the 80s, with a slight drop being acceptable at night, however they can handle a much wider range of temps. They will not grow as fast or be as active in cooler temperatures, but they can handle much colder temps, especially if allowed to warm up during the day. : : I have a group of over a dozen adult African Spurred Tortoises that are kept outside, year round, with temperatures that range from a low of approximately 25 degrees to a high over 120 degrees. (The coolest daytime highs are in the 40s) They have no supplemental heat, but they do have shallow burrows protected by thick grasses or bushes that provide them protection from the heat/cold/rain. They come out and bask if the sun is out, even when high temperatures are only 50-60 degrees. I keep hatchlings inside until they are about four inches and then they are moved outside. I may bring the four-inch tortoises inside if it is predicted to be extremely cold or wet, but I have had four-inch tortoises outside the past two winter, and of course the summers. : : The adult tortoises have lived this way for years. I have never had one die, they produce each year and they have never required veterinary care. These tortoises are extremely hearty, which is one of the reasons they are so popular. To kill one of these tortoises, one must make a serious mistake for an extended period of time. In Arizona or other warm climates they are very easy to care for, in cold climates, additional care is required but they can be kept successfully. : : On the comment that people in cold climates should not have these "large" tortoises, I agree only if the person is not willing or capable of caring for it. Many people on this forum spend much more money on their tortoises than I would. If they are willing to provide the care and spend the money, they should be allowed to have the tortoise. I would not choose to keep a sulcata in a cold climate, but then I have not chosen to live in a cold climate. I know people that have built greenhouses for their tortoises and spend big bucks heating it in the winter. : : I think the "question" is one of information. Does the person know what they are getting into? Did the seller inform the buyer of the potential size and care requirements. If the person makes an informed decision, I think it is their right to purchase a sulcata, even if they live in Alaska. I would recommend that they consider a smaller species, but with the proper care it could be done. ( Some of the best rainforest and desert exhibits are in cold climates, proves it can be done.) : : There are many unwanted pets; dogs, cats, horses, etc. many do not receive the proper care and tortoises are no exception. While there is no "dog pound" for tortoises, there are thousands of people willing to take or buy unwanted tortoises. People often talk of the many African Spurred tortoises that are imported annually. Fortunately for wild populations, sulcatas are no longer imported, but the demand remains. This demand can be met through adoptions, breeders, etc. (If anyone has an unwanted tortoise, mention it on the forum and you will be inundated with request) There is nothing wrong with a person enjoying the experience of keeping a sulcata for a few years and then giving it a new home, if they can no longer care for it. : : I would guarantee over the past few years that more Russian torotises have died in the U.S. than African Spurred tortoises. Does this mean that people should not purchase Russion tortoises? No, the problem is information, not size. Once acclimated a Russian tortoise is a great choice. The problem is that Russians are imported and sold at low prices. The cheaper something is, the less value many people place on it. No animal should be considered an expendable pet. If people spent a few more dollars for a captive Russian tortoise, the survival rate in captivity would be much higher. : : It wasn't long ago that sulcatas were unavailable in the U.S. When they were first imported they demanded high prices. Thanks to individuals that breed sulcatas, many people that never dreamed of being able to afford a sulcata can. I don't want to remove the dream. It is surprising that there are so many people that truely love and care for their torotises. We may not do everything correct, but our knowledge on all tortoise species and their captive reqquirements has grown significantly over the past few years because of the people that care. Much of the knowledge is not coming from zoo's or scientists, but from individuals that have dedicated their lives to caring for their pet. Sometimes we learn from our mistakes, but we have more knowledge available than ever before. In the long run this knowledge should benefit our tortoises. : : Captive breeding of sulcatas may be the only thing that saves this tortoise from extinction. If it weren't for the captive breeding in the U.S., this tortoise could possibly become extinct. Based on population estimates, there may be more African Spurred tortoises in the U.S. than in Africa! : : Everyones time, money and care have ensured that this species will be around for future generations to see and enjoy. It's not perfect but then we don't treat each other perfect either. : : This is getting way too long and I'm starting to get too philosophical, so I will end. : : Happy New Year and I hope everyone keeps exploring new ways to improve the life of our tortoises, for they truly make our lives better. : : Jerry Fife

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