Re: Clueless?? Consider natural range!

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Posted by steve on August 25, 2000 at 13:16:03:

In Reply to: Re: Clueless?? Consider natural range! posted by Julie on August 25, 2000 at 13:03:05:

belive me julie, i've never wanted to be wrong until now, but it's a fact. thanks for not slamming me. i'm just trying to help the only way i know how and that's breeding. i have been watching for the upcoming care sheets, i'm very anxious to see what i'm doing wrong. like i said, mine are doing great and i WILL have a success story one day. they're here, we might as well try to save them.

: Sadly, you are right. I don't think there is much hope that people will exercise good judgment and stop buying wild caught animals. You are also right about the importance of proper care for
these animals once they have been swallowed up by the export market. A knowledgeable individual is working on caresheets for pyxis tortoises even as we speak. Those sheets will be available on the Tortoise Trust web site very shortly. Keep checking there. It is our very best hope that the spider torts who come here will be well cared for and will live healthy and comfortable lives.
: : there you go. we're going to buy them, so help us breed them. you seem to have no problem finding reasons for not having them. why don't you use a little of that energy to find info on maintaining and breeding them. you're right, people (including myself) are purchasing these animals with little to no knowledge on raising them. mine are doing great, but i'd love to have some valuable info on them instead of being slammed for my purchase. i'd love to be able to stop animals from being stripped from their natural environment, but there will always be a market for them and it's not going to happen. so instead, i'm going to use my knowledge and caring to try to reproduce these animals so when the day comes that they no longer exist in the wild, the species won't be extinct. whether we're supporting the importation or not, it's better to have these animals go to people like us who will try with all their might to reproduce them, instead of having them end up in pet stores and purchased by people without a clue, as an impulse puchase. anyways, my 2 cents.

: : : RSR, Everything you say is intelligent, true, logical and reasonable. I simple reiterate what I said originally and what is evident from EJ's second response: you are wasting your breath until you talk to someone equally intelligent, logical, reasonable and capable of understanding the truth. Alas, if such people predominated, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I hate to hear myself admit defeat, but after years of advocating the rights of all animals, I cannot but accept that the time has not yet come for my ideas (and yours). And when it comes, it will be too late for a great many species...
: : : On a more optimistic note, you must proliferate information about the plight of pyxis torts, their imminent danger of extinction, their proper care. Perhaps this will educate potential consumers. They might then choose to purchase cb's instead, thus rendering the trade in pyxis and other wild caught specimens unprofitable. And, for those consumers who can't think that analytically, you could at least let them know the care needs of these tortoises and perhaps prevent some suffering. In any case, when it comes to me, you're preaching to the choir. Amen.
: : : : No doubt many of the buyers of these tortoises are unaware of their restricted ranges, hence small natural populations to begin with. Kuchling and Bloxam's 1998 original estimate of the ENTIRE range of planicauda to be 15,000 hectares, later, slightly expanded by Behler, Bloxam, Rakovanyo and Randriamahazo (1993). These are not leopard tortoises whose range is about a third of the continent of Africa, whose wild collection can endure (presently) pet trade collection.

: : : : Initially I was very supportive of the Pyxis imports, as ex situ insurance colonies assuming experienced breeders would end up establishing several viable colonies in the US (already present in Europe). This has happened and no doubt from a species survival stadpoint, a very good thing. All the Pyxis (all Madagascarine tortoises) are suffering from habitat destruction and food market trade. But, now, to see these naturally rare tortoises denigrated to this level of used car salesmanship due to the numbers being imported, is, as you aptly put it, unethical. Simply put, its gotten out of control.

: : : : Bottom line, buy a cb redfoot or leopard in lieu of wc Pyxis. In fact, doesn't Mr. Clueless himself, EJ, breed leopards? Here's a plug for you and your leopards EJ.

Follow Ups:

Re: Clueless?? You are at this stage John 08/25/00 (6)
- Re: Clueless?? You are at this stage steve 08/26/00 (5)
  - Re:BRAVO!! Eric T. 08/26/00 (4)
    - Re:BRAVO!! Cary 08/26/00 (3)
      - Re:BRAVO!! steve 08/26/00 (2)
        
        Re:BRAVO!! Cary 08/26/00 (1)
        
        Re:BRAVO!! testing 08/27/00 (0)

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: belive me julie, i've never wanted to be wrong until now, but it's a fact. thanks for not slamming me. i'm just trying to help the only way i know how and that's breeding. i have been watching for the upcoming care sheets, i'm very anxious to see what i'm doing wrong. like i said, mine are doing great and i WILL have a success story one day. they're here, we might as well try to save them. : : Sadly, you are right. I don't think there is much hope that people will exercise good judgment and stop buying wild caught animals. You are also right about the importance of proper care for : these animals once they have been swallowed up by the export market. A knowledgeable individual is working on caresheets for pyxis tortoises even as we speak. Those sheets will be available on the Tortoise Trust web site very shortly. Keep checking there. It is our very best hope that the spider torts who come here will be well cared for and will live healthy and comfortable lives. : : : there you go. we're going to buy them, so help us breed them. you seem to have no problem finding reasons for not having them. why don't you use a little of that energy to find info on maintaining and breeding them. you're right, people (including myself) are purchasing these animals with little to no knowledge on raising them. mine are doing great, but i'd love to have some valuable info on them instead of being slammed for my purchase. i'd love to be able to stop animals from being stripped from their natural environment, but there will always be a market for them and it's not going to happen. so instead, i'm going to use my knowledge and caring to try to reproduce these animals so when the day comes that they no longer exist in the wild, the species won't be extinct. whether we're supporting the importation or not, it's better to have these animals go to people like us who will try with all their might to reproduce them, instead of having them end up in pet stores and purchased by people without a clue, as an impulse puchase. anyways, my 2 cents. : : : : RSR, Everything you say is intelligent, true, logical and reasonable. I simple reiterate what I said originally and what is evident from EJ's second response: you are wasting your breath until you talk to someone equally intelligent, logical, reasonable and capable of understanding the truth. Alas, if such people predominated, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I hate to hear myself admit defeat, but after years of advocating the rights of all animals, I cannot but accept that the time has not yet come for my ideas (and yours). And when it comes, it will be too late for a great many species... : : : : On a more optimistic note, you must proliferate information about the plight of pyxis torts, their imminent danger of extinction, their proper care. Perhaps this will educate potential consumers. They might then choose to purchase cb's instead, thus rendering the trade in pyxis and other wild caught specimens unprofitable. And, for those consumers who can't think that analytically, you could at least let them know the care needs of these tortoises and perhaps prevent some suffering. In any case, when it comes to me, you're preaching to the choir. Amen. : : : : : No doubt many of the buyers of these tortoises are unaware of their restricted ranges, hence small natural populations to begin with. Kuchling and Bloxam's 1998 original estimate of the ENTIRE range of planicauda to be 15,000 hectares, later, slightly expanded by Behler, Bloxam, Rakovanyo and Randriamahazo (1993). These are not leopard tortoises whose range is about a third of the continent of Africa, whose wild collection can endure (presently) pet trade collection. : : : : : Initially I was very supportive of the Pyxis imports, as ex situ insurance colonies assuming experienced breeders would end up establishing several viable colonies in the US (already present in Europe). This has happened and no doubt from a species survival stadpoint, a very good thing. All the Pyxis (all Madagascarine tortoises) are suffering from habitat destruction and food market trade. But, now, to see these naturally rare tortoises denigrated to this level of used car salesmanship due to the numbers being imported, is, as you aptly put it, unethical. Simply put, its gotten out of control. : : : : : Bottom line, buy a cb redfoot or leopard in lieu of wc Pyxis. In fact, doesn't Mr. Clueless himself, EJ, breed leopards? Here's a plug for you and your leopards EJ.

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