Re: Sulcata Tortoise Health and Breeding

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Posted by EJ on August 03, 2000 at 20:02:33:

In Reply to: Re: Sulcata Tortoise Health and Breeding posted by KATHY on August 03, 2000 at 12:49:36:

Its responses like this that are scary. This implys that the cause of pyramiding is known. I can say with a great deal of certainty that it is not known what causes pyramiding. For those of you who care about your tortoises and turtles do not stop looking for the cause. The general areas we are looking at is diet and environmental factors. (hummm, That's what I call general) That's the point. It is a combination of factors and not just one.
To those of you who question where I'm coming from ask some of the herp vets such as Dr. Mader, Rossi, Boyer, Donoghue (I think I got the spelling right that time) just to name a few.
Although Andy is a very intelegent and resourceful dude he does not have the answer to this question. If he does he is not providing the data to support it.(That was a good cast right in the zone).

>Pyramiding is usually attributed to a diet too high in protein.

Yup. True, but a misconsception. It is a great deal more complex then 'a diet high in protien'.

>Of course, when you think of protein rich food, you think of dog food, cat food, meats, etc., and say you would never feed that to your tort!

Unless of course you are talking of redfoots and hingebacks which are omnivours. Another can of worms. But those that are saying pyramiding is caused by high levels of protien say these types of tortoises are easier than grazers.(hmmmm, makes me wonder.)

>But many plants have a high protein content and are a regular part of many torts' diets. Foods like brussel sprouts, cauliflower, peas, beans.

Nothing wrong with this if there is sufficient fiber and/or variety to balance this.

>Anyway, excessive amounts of protein in the diet causes very rapid growth (pyramiding).

NO, NO, NO!!!! There is no evidence to supprot this. For every example of this statement you give me I can give you one to contridict it.

>Pyramiding is the *indicator* of too fast growth and its' side effects.

Nope, wrong again.(jeez, I'm starting to sound like someone we all know and love.)

>Rapid growth causes dark coloration of your tort's carapace due to excessively thick layers of keratin.
No. If you look at the coloration of a tortoises shell you will see the pigment is in the upper layers. (Why? I don't know.) It has not had time to be worn away. I have noticed this in 3 species that I keep including the sulcata.

>(The dark color absorbs more heat than the lighter carapace, so your tort heats up more than he would normally.)
You have to ask yourself, Why did mother nature set up this situation? (at least I do)

>Also, the growth affects the bones, which become porous and weak in structure.

Depending on diet and available calcium and temperature and hydration. (you get the point)

>I would say the main health concerns of a high protein diet (and rapid growth) are liver disorders, kidney problems and the way it affects the metabolizing of calcium.

All of these a very different subjects.

: I asked if I could somehow *stop* the effects of the pyramiding and was told to feed the recommended sulcata diet (natural grazing foods, low protein veggies, little bit of fruit), keep the tort hydrated, and offer lots of sunshine. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

No reason to. If the diet is balanced an varied it/they will continue to grow 'normally' if again you consider temperature and hydration along with the rest.

Kathy, sorry for using your post to make a point. You provided all the right questions.
Ed

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Re: Sulcata Tortoise Health and Breeding KATHY 08/03/00 (1)
- A strong willed woman after my own heart. n/p/ EJ 08/03/00 (0)

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: Its responses like this that are scary. This implys that the cause of pyramiding is known. I can say with a great deal of certainty that it is not known what causes pyramiding. For those of you who care about your tortoises and turtles do not stop looking for the cause. The general areas we are looking at is diet and environmental factors. (hummm, That's what I call general) That's the point. It is a combination of factors and not just one. : To those of you who question where I'm coming from ask some of the herp vets such as Dr. Mader, Rossi, Boyer, Donoghue (I think I got the spelling right that time) just to name a few. : Although Andy is a very intelegent and resourceful dude he does not have the answer to this question. If he does he is not providing the data to support it.(That was a good cast right in the zone). : >Pyramiding is usually attributed to a diet too high in protein. : Yup. True, but a misconsception. It is a great deal more complex then 'a diet high in protien'. : >Of course, when you think of protein rich food, you think of dog food, cat food, meats, etc., and say you would never feed that to your tort! : Unless of course you are talking of redfoots and hingebacks which are omnivours. Another can of worms. But those that are saying pyramiding is caused by high levels of protien say these types of tortoises are easier than grazers.(hmmmm, makes me wonder.) : >But many plants have a high protein content and are a regular part of many torts' diets. Foods like brussel sprouts, cauliflower, peas, beans. : Nothing wrong with this if there is sufficient fiber and/or variety to balance this. : >Anyway, excessive amounts of protein in the diet causes very rapid growth (pyramiding). : NO, NO, NO!!!! There is no evidence to supprot this. For every example of this statement you give me I can give you one to contridict it. : >Pyramiding is the *indicator* of too fast growth and its' side effects. : Nope, wrong again.(jeez, I'm starting to sound like someone we all know and love.) : >Rapid growth causes dark coloration of your tort's carapace due to excessively thick layers of keratin. : No. If you look at the coloration of a tortoises shell you will see the pigment is in the upper layers. (Why? I don't know.) It has not had time to be worn away. I have noticed this in 3 species that I keep including the sulcata. : >(The dark color absorbs more heat than the lighter carapace, so your tort heats up more than he would normally.) : You have to ask yourself, Why did mother nature set up this situation? (at least I do) : >Also, the growth affects the bones, which become porous and weak in structure. : Depending on diet and available calcium and temperature and hydration. (you get the point) : : >I would say the main health concerns of a high protein diet (and rapid growth) are liver disorders, kidney problems and the way it affects the metabolizing of calcium. : All of these a very different subjects. : : : I asked if I could somehow *stop* the effects of the pyramiding and was told to feed the recommended sulcata diet (natural grazing foods, low protein veggies, little bit of fruit), keep the tort hydrated, and offer lots of sunshine. I'm keeping my fingers crossed! : No reason to. If the diet is balanced an varied it/they will continue to grow 'normally' if again you consider temperature and hydration along with the rest. : : Kathy, sorry for using your post to make a point. You provided all the right questions. : Ed

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