Re: Pet shop or stew pot? Is cities helping?

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Posted by Olaf Pronk / Centre Soafiavy on July 06, 2000 at 03:21:21:

In Reply to: Re: Pet shop or stew pot? Is cities helping? posted by Denis Mosimann (Switzerland) on July 06, 2000 at 01:08:25:

Dennis,

I think it is a misunderstanding that Appendix I turtles are being exported legally for the food market. No doubt HUGE quantities of Appendix I turtles are being exported (Trionyx hurum, T.gangeticus, K.tecta. G.hamiltonii and others) but these are either mislabeled on permits, come without permits or with false permits. Commercial trade in appendix I species is not allowed, no matter whether for the food- or pet market.

Furthermore, I donot think the Chinese eat these rare turtles because they are poor or hungry. With the current prices on the foodmarket for some species, eating turtles is pure luxury.

Madagascxar asked France to return the confiscated radiata and Pyxis to Madagascar, freight charges at Madagascar's expense but France never replied. Instead, they sold them to a french trader.

I agree with you that the US donot export many of their cb turtles and tortoises but donot think this is the breeders fault. Exports involve so much red tape that people rather sell them locally. In some cases, apllicants for permits are almost treated as if they were criminals.

Olaf Pronk
Centre Soafiavy
Madagascar

: Very large debate...

: I can only say that a friend of me was going in China last month and wrote that it's now to late for chinese turtles and tortoises. Less and less of those animals are found in chinese market and of course, China import (legally and illegally) much more animals from other countries and on this animals, many are CITES I!!! Now, it is simple to understand : China wouldn't more export those animals and they would all be eaten by people that are very hungry. What would you do if you have no meal and you find a turtle that is CITES I? I know your answer and for those people, it's the same... And another thing : a Swiss importer that is specialised in Cuora told me China would not give any export paper, but can of course...

: And for US laws : you don't know what to do with all your box-turtles babies and no one is exported!!! I search some Terrapene till 5 years and nobody want to export them. And of course Terrapene are CITES II!!! So what's going on with US? We export you more and more Testudo spp. You can have Testudo kleinmanni that nobody can have now here! And for the Pyxis, no tortoise came here in Europe legally!!! So try also to share your mind and think also about what you do for other!
: For example : in Europe, some breeders are very good breeders : all the subspecies of Pyxis arachnoides are bred, also Terrapene (and big numbers of coahuila, CITES I!!!), all the Cuorae, Manouria, Homopus, ... I don't think it's the case for your country that import great numbers of animals and in proportion, only few people breed those species...

: And another thing for Madagascar : people are very arm there and like in China eat the tortoises that they find!!! If a stranger come into the breeding center for A. radiata and give some money for a baby to an employee, he would get a baby... Last year, in France, the police found boxes with about 350 P. arachnoides and 150 A. radiata from Madagascar (that were imported illegally). This land wanted not to give them away to Madagascar because they would be coming there and then be eaten or re-exported illegally to another country...

: Regards

: Denis Mosimann

Follow Ups:

Re: Pet shop or stew pot? Is cities helping? Richard Fife 07/06/00 (0)
Correction for Pyxis in France Denis Mosimann (Switzerland) 07/06/00 (14)
- Re: Correction for Pyxis in France Terry 07/06/00 (3)
  - C. yunnanensis??? Denis Mosimann (Switzerland) 07/06/00 (2)
    - Re: C. yunnanensis??? Tobi 07/06/00 (1)
      - CB Terrapene ornata ornata Denis Mosimann (Switzerland) 07/07/00 (0)
- Re: Correction for Pyxis in France Olaf Pronk / Centre soafiavy 07/06/00 (9)
  - Dear Mr. Pronk Tobi 07/06/00 (8)
    - Photo yniphora Max 07/06/00 (0)
    - Re: Dear Mr. Pronk Olaf Pronk / Centre soafiavy 07/06/00 (3)
      - G.yniphora photo Olaf Pronk / Centre soafiavy 07/06/00 (2)
        
        Re: Magnificent display of chelonia Olaf, mila grazie:):)...n/p Giovanni 07/07/00 (0)
        
        Re: G.yniphora photo/ Great photos Olaf, thanks for posting them. N/P. Terry 07/06/00 (0)
    - G.platynota photo Olaf Pronk / Centre Soafiavy 07/06/00 (1)
      - THAT is a phantastic tortoise. n/p EJ 07/06/00 (0)
    - Re: Dear Mr. Pronk Terry 07/06/00 (0)

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Comments:
: : Dennis, : I think it is a misunderstanding that Appendix I turtles are being exported legally for the food market. No doubt HUGE quantities of Appendix I turtles are being exported (Trionyx hurum, T.gangeticus, K.tecta. G.hamiltonii and others) but these are either mislabeled on permits, come without permits or with false permits. Commercial trade in appendix I species is not allowed, no matter whether for the food- or pet market. : Furthermore, I donot think the Chinese eat these rare turtles because they are poor or hungry. With the current prices on the foodmarket for some species, eating turtles is pure luxury. : Madagascxar asked France to return the confiscated radiata and Pyxis to Madagascar, freight charges at Madagascar's expense but France never replied. Instead, they sold them to a french trader. : I agree with you that the US donot export many of their cb turtles and tortoises but donot think this is the breeders fault. Exports involve so much red tape that people rather sell them locally. In some cases, apllicants for permits are almost treated as if they were criminals. : Olaf Pronk : Centre Soafiavy : Madagascar : : Very large debate... : : I can only say that a friend of me was going in China last month and wrote that it's now to late for chinese turtles and tortoises. Less and less of those animals are found in chinese market and of course, China import (legally and illegally) much more animals from other countries and on this animals, many are CITES I!!! Now, it is simple to understand : China wouldn't more export those animals and they would all be eaten by people that are very hungry. What would you do if you have no meal and you find a turtle that is CITES I? I know your answer and for those people, it's the same... And another thing : a Swiss importer that is specialised in Cuora told me China would not give any export paper, but can of course... : : And for US laws : you don't know what to do with all your box-turtles babies and no one is exported!!! I search some Terrapene till 5 years and nobody want to export them. And of course Terrapene are CITES II!!! So what's going on with US? We export you more and more Testudo spp. You can have Testudo kleinmanni that nobody can have now here! And for the Pyxis, no tortoise came here in Europe legally!!! So try also to share your mind and think also about what you do for other! : : For example : in Europe, some breeders are very good breeders : all the subspecies of Pyxis arachnoides are bred, also Terrapene (and big numbers of coahuila, CITES I!!!), all the Cuorae, Manouria, Homopus, ... I don't think it's the case for your country that import great numbers of animals and in proportion, only few people breed those species... : : And another thing for Madagascar : people are very arm there and like in China eat the tortoises that they find!!! If a stranger come into the breeding center for A. radiata and give some money for a baby to an employee, he would get a baby... Last year, in France, the police found boxes with about 350 P. arachnoides and 150 A. radiata from Madagascar (that were imported illegally). This land wanted not to give them away to Madagascar because they would be coming there and then be eaten or re-exported illegally to another country... : : Regards : : Denis Mosimann

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