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Posted by EJ on July 05, 2000 at 10:58:06:
In Reply to: Re: Stomach acid revisited. posted by A. C. Highfield on July 05, 2000 at 08:47:42:
: : >Mentions nothing about reptiles
: That is because these products are not licensed for reptiles - but it does not take much in the way of intelligence (I would have thought) to draw useful comparisons...
So then you are saying there are no real studies on this drug as as it pertains to reptiles.
: : : My friend did mention that a gut flora imbalance in grazing mammals which is lethal was caused by the overuse of
: : antibiotics but that there was no evidence for this in grazing tortoises.
: : Nonsense. Pray, what's the functional difference?
: : >You’re saying there is no physiological difference between Mammals and Reptiles?
: I am saying that there are precious few functional differences between grazing mammalian herbivores and reptilian herbivores, yes. Certainly in terms of digestive tract physiology and their employment of symbiotic flora to aid cellulose digestion.
I guess we can totally disregard the Warm blooded/ Cold blooded, Homeotherm/Poikilotherm, endotherm/ectoherm thing but I can't help but wonder how this effects digestion and the gastric juice production when this is based to a high degree on temperature in reptiles.
: : : It was mentioned that stomach Ph is about 2 which I think is as acid as you can get.
: : Are we talking ol' Mississippi 'gators here, or tortoises? A tortoise with a gut pH of 2 is in big trouble. That's acidosis.
: : Actual, normal, healthy range is around 6.5 to 7.2. As gut pH falls below 5, tissue damage and production of endotoxins will occur.
: : > Normal (?) low is about 2.0 and the high is (now this surprised me) is as high as 8.0 for the gastric juices of Testudo graeca depending on if it is fasting or if it is feeding. Ph is obviously related to gastric juice production which is related to feeding and temperature so it is not fixed.
: No. It is not fixed. But below 5.0 is abnormal and should give rise for concern. At 2.0 you would have a massive die-off of healthy commensals and consequential generation of potentially fatal endotoxins. T. graeca does not employ an acid-based digestion, so if you obtained a reading of 2.0, either the methodology was suspect or this tortoise was suffering from acidosis...
I guess the two authors who came up with the same results are wrong and you are right. I guess I need to go back and reread the material and compare it with the data you published from your findings. (hmmm, wait a minute. I seem to be missing a reference)
Andy, I don't have a problem with your information. Time and time again I find the stuff you put out is fantastic and I highly recomend it to any turtle/tortoise keeper but I always recomend that the subjective opinions and definitives be taken lightly. In this field as in the field of biology the road does not end at Andy Highfield. Always Question. Thank you for providing all the questions.
Ed
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