Re: The law of supply and demand...long

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Posted by Olaf Pronk / Centre Soafiavy on June 30, 2000 at 23:55:09:

In Reply to: Re: The law of supply and demand...long posted by Logic in Action on June 30, 2000 at 14:04:55:

Although you have many valid points, you have not concluded the financial scenario which has now upset you.
If all Tortoises ( to use one animal type as an example) were to cost $ 300.00 or $3000.00 each then far fewer would be exported. Far fewer would be collected and far fewer would ultimately die in " novice " hands. The remaining populations would inevitably continue their demise ( deforestation, pollution, consumption, trinket exploitation, etc.) but the few who were breeding them would enjoy immense profits. In the US, this is termed " Price fixing". The price fixer enjoys the benefit and everyone else suffers.

True in great detail. I am not all that upset though! Although "price fixing" has a very negative sound, I must admit I enjoyed it. However, I don't think the pleasure was only mine. The breeders who bought my "expensive" Pyxis did so because they were planning to make some money in the years to come as well and they would have pyramided the prices of their captive bred offspring down to a level that no body would have suffered in the end. With the dramatic price drop of Pyxis and the related upset with people who bought expensive Pyxis in the past few years it is likely that the same breeders will be more hesitant if in the future other high priced "new" species will become available.

Ask yourself some related questions;
Radiated Torts were termed difficult 10 years ago and now are being breed somewhat successfully. New animals mean new knowledge which means new successes. Would this also be true with Spider Torts?

G.radiata are very easy tortoises to breed. They lay several clutches a year and reproduce even under deplorable conditions.. That more are bred now than 10 years ago is only because more animals became available. It takes a radiata 8-13 years to reach sexual maturity. No doubt Pyxis will be bred succesfully in the USA within the years to come.but that would also have been the case if only the limited quantities of Pyxis I exported in the past years would have been available to breeders. Any way,
there is not a very big quantitive difference in the potential breeding stock if your figure of 10 % survival would be correct. I also like to think that the survival percentage of the animals I exported at a high price in previous years is much higher than 10%.

If the price remains at $1500 per animal, will less animals be eaten or otherwise destroyed?

Certainly not. Although not many Pyxis are eaten as more nutricious G.radiata are plentyful in parts of Pyxis arachnoides' range, habitat destruction, etc. have of course a much greater impact on Pyxis populations than export for the live animal trade as is the case in most if not all species of reptiles.

If the animal is truly endangered, will anyone be able to go out and easily collect thousands ( yes, as you admitted...thousands over a two year period.)?
And finally, if you fix the price high enough, don't you encourage demand, smuggling and all the other various illegal activities that come hand and hand with the profit motive?

Pyxis are not truly endangered to begin with. I am certain the current levels of exploitation for the live animal trade have NO serious impact on the wild populations.
No, I don't think high prices result in smuggling. The availability of of legal specimens
does not encourage smuggling. Hobbyists prefer legal animals, even if they are expensive rather than illegal animals. On the other hand, with the current low prices on legal Pyxis, not very many will be smuggled either�..

Russian Torts are imported into the US at a cost of about $7.00 to 8.00 each. Babies, in the US sell for about $ 65.00 each, $100.00 in Japan, $200.00 in most of europe and over $300.00 in England.
So, which is wrong? To sell the animals so cheaply in the US? Or to make everyone pay dearly elsewhere in the world? Will any more live or die in their native habitat because of the price?

In the case of Russians, the exports of tens of thousends must have had an impact on how many remain in their native habitat. If they would sell for more, less would be collected and the impact of collecting would come to a point where it makes no significant difference any more to collect or not. Don't forget export statistics are evaluated by people who probably never have seen a Russian tortoise in their lives, read or write TRAFFIC reports rather than search for serious scientific literature and have plenty of time to lobby for or invent restrictive legislation.

African Torts may also have been badly exploited and probably should have been " farm raised " in order to control the price. Then, we in the US would pay dearly for or beloved animals. Instead, they are cheap and MANY breeders enjoy them throughout every state. We successfully breed them and force down the prices.
This is the law of supply and demand in effect.
Now that import restriction have been imposed, we shall have to see if the existing supply and breeding capacity is enough to support demand. If not, prices will rise...and this will all take place without any form of price fixing...

At COP 11 (the CITES Conference of the Parties in Nairobi earlier this year), an ammended proposal by France to transfer Geochelone sulcata from Appendix II to Appendix I was accepted resulting in maintaining the species on Appendix II with a zero quota for exports from the wild. This, combined with the recent Heartwater disease related (?) ban on imports of this species into the USA and the interdiction to move the species (captive bred or wild collected if I understand well) across State lines in my opinion will soon result in breeders loosing interest in the species and I would not be surprised if the current restrictions remain in place will push the species back to obscurity. Instead of traders or breeders fixing the price, the government(s) regulate (=restrict) the trade. With the current levels of Pyxis exports that clearly upset many, I believe it is only a matter of time until CITES and individual Governments will step in and regulate (restrict). It may be a tick, moving the species from Appendix I to appendix II or placing them on the US ESA but something will happen. We will then realize that "price fixing" and the resulting limited exports would have been a much better solution. In matters of live animal trade, not only the law of supply and demand is in play!

Best regards
Olaf

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sorry, typo olaf pronk / Centre Soafiavy 07/01/00 (0)

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: Although you have many valid points, you have not concluded the financial scenario which has now upset you. : If all Tortoises ( to use one animal type as an example) were to cost $ 300.00 or $3000.00 each then far fewer would be exported. Far fewer would be collected and far fewer would ultimately die in " novice " hands. The remaining populations would inevitably continue their demise ( deforestation, pollution, consumption, trinket exploitation, etc.) but the few who were breeding them would enjoy immense profits. In the US, this is termed " Price fixing". The price fixer enjoys the benefit and everyone else suffers. : True in great detail. I am not all that upset though! Although "price fixing" has a very negative sound, I must admit I enjoyed it. However, I don't think the pleasure was only mine. The breeders who bought my "expensive" Pyxis did so because they were planning to make some money in the years to come as well and they would have pyramided the prices of their captive bred offspring down to a level that no body would have suffered in the end. With the dramatic price drop of Pyxis and the related upset with people who bought expensive Pyxis in the past few years it is likely that the same breeders will be more hesitant if in the future other high priced "new" species will become available. : Ask yourself some related questions; : Radiated Torts were termed difficult 10 years ago and now are being breed somewhat successfully. New animals mean new knowledge which means new successes. Would this also be true with Spider Torts? : G.radiata are very easy tortoises to breed. They lay several clutches a year and reproduce even under deplorable conditions.. That more are bred now than 10 years ago is only because more animals became available. It takes a radiata 8-13 years to reach sexual maturity. No doubt Pyxis will be bred succesfully in the USA within the years to come.but that would also have been the case if only the limited quantities of Pyxis I exported in the past years would have been available to breeders. Any way, : there is not a very big quantitive difference in the potential breeding stock if your figure of 10 % survival would be correct. I also like to think that the survival percentage of the animals I exported at a high price in previous years is much higher than 10%. : If the price remains at $1500 per animal, will less animals be eaten or otherwise destroyed? : Certainly not. Although not many Pyxis are eaten as more nutricious G.radiata are plentyful in parts of Pyxis arachnoides' range, habitat destruction, etc. have of course a much greater impact on Pyxis populations than export for the live animal trade as is the case in most if not all species of reptiles. : If the animal is truly endangered, will anyone be able to go out and easily collect thousands ( yes, as you admitted...thousands over a two year period.)? : And finally, if you fix the price high enough, don't you encourage demand, smuggling and all the other various illegal activities that come hand and hand with the profit motive? : Pyxis are not truly endangered to begin with. I am certain the current levels of exploitation for the live animal trade have NO serious impact on the wild populations. : No, I don't think high prices result in smuggling. The availability of of legal specimens : does not encourage smuggling. Hobbyists prefer legal animals, even if they are expensive rather than illegal animals. On the other hand, with the current low prices on legal Pyxis, not very many will be smuggled either�.. : Russian Torts are imported into the US at a cost of about $7.00 to 8.00 each. Babies, in the US sell for about $ 65.00 each, $100.00 in Japan, $200.00 in most of europe and over $300.00 in England. : So, which is wrong? To sell the animals so cheaply in the US? Or to make everyone pay dearly elsewhere in the world? Will any more live or die in their native habitat because of the price? : In the case of Russians, the exports of tens of thousends must have had an impact on how many remain in their native habitat. If they would sell for more, less would be collected and the impact of collecting would come to a point where it makes no significant difference any more to collect or not. Don't forget export statistics are evaluated by people who probably never have seen a Russian tortoise in their lives, read or write TRAFFIC reports rather than search for serious scientific literature and have plenty of time to lobby for or invent restrictive legislation. : : African Torts may also have been badly exploited and probably should have been " farm raised " in order to control the price. Then, we in the US would pay dearly for or beloved animals. Instead, they are cheap and MANY breeders enjoy them throughout every state. We successfully breed them and force down the prices. : This is the law of supply and demand in effect. : Now that import restriction have been imposed, we shall have to see if the existing supply and breeding capacity is enough to support demand. If not, prices will rise...and this will all take place without any form of price fixing... : : At COP 11 (the CITES Conference of the Parties in Nairobi earlier this year), an ammended proposal by France to transfer Geochelone sulcata from Appendix II to Appendix I was accepted resulting in maintaining the species on Appendix II with a zero quota for exports from the wild. This, combined with the recent Heartwater disease related (?) ban on imports of this species into the USA and the interdiction to move the species (captive bred or wild collected if I understand well) across State lines in my opinion will soon result in breeders loosing interest in the species and I would not be surprised if the current restrictions remain in place will push the species back to obscurity. Instead of traders or breeders fixing the price, the government(s) regulate (=restrict) the trade. With the current levels of Pyxis exports that clearly upset many, I believe it is only a matter of time until CITES and individual Governments will step in and regulate (restrict). It may be a tick, moving the species from Appendix I to appendix II or placing them on the US ESA but something will happen. We will then realize that "price fixing" and the resulting limited exports would have been a much better solution. In matters of live animal trade, not only the law of supply and demand is in play! : Best regards : Olaf

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