Re: The law of supply and demand...long

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Posted by Olaf Pronk / Centre soafiavy on June 30, 2000 at 12:47:25:

In Reply to: Re: The law of supply and demand...long posted by Logic in Action on June 30, 2000 at 11:44:24:

I am the first to admit that my main complaints have commercial motives and in fact said so in my original post. However, there is a difference between selling an animal for a million Dollars or one Dollar and selling an animal for $1500-$3000 or $300. The exporters in Ukraine would sell their horsfieldi at much better prices if only they would limit their exports to say 2000 or 3000 animals a year. The exporters, breeders and tortoises would be better off. I am not so sure if only the laws of supply and demand should be considered as we are dealing with live animals. Don't get me wrong, I am a commercial animal exporter and am very much in favour of the free market system but for certain species of animals, it is better in my opinion to have a regulated and limited supply. Pyxis should not become the next red-ears or Russians and this not only for my obvious commercial considerations.

Not thousends but hundreds of spiders have been imported into the USA. I agree that many of these tortoises will not live very long and if the price drops further, the survival rate will even become lower as people take less care for animals that are cheap, i.e. a different kind of buyer (unknowledgable, yes even ignorant) steps into the market. See what happens with the Red-eared sliders and Russians. Massive exports are disturbing to many and may result in total prohibition.

In general, I believe serious captive breeding operations in range countries can easily win the competition against breeding operations in importing countries because the climate is better, labor is cheaper and the cost to purchase the initial breeders is lower.
If the range countries of G.sulcata would have started breeding these animals some years ago instead of only exporting wild collected, they would have been controling the market.

After 2001, the Madagascar CITES management authority will no longer allow exports
of wild collected Pyxis anyway.so we'll have to compete with captive bred Pyxis only. We do have the advantage to have started breeding Pyxis five years earlier than breedres in the importing countries though. Our disadvantage is that Pyxis take quite some time to grow to four inches.

I agree completely with you that most zoos do not have very good records breeding reptiles. Of course, they breed species the private sector does not breed (Komodos,
Chinese alligators, Fiji iguanas) but that is only because not many people in the private sector have such animals. I have experienced enormous jealousy from major zoos when they learned we started working with some of these "high profile zoo exclusivities" such as Chinese alligators, Geochelone yniphora, Geochelone platynota and other species.

My best regards
Olaf Pronk
Centre Soafiavy / Soafiavy Export
Antananarivo
Madagascar

: Yes, it would be ideal to sell one animal for a million dollars as opposed to selling a million animals for one dollar. Fortunately, the laws of supply and demand ultimately come into play and establish control. At one end of the spectrum you have Russian tort's and at the other you have Spiders. The collectors in the former Ukraine would love to sell their tort's for $300 each as is done with Spider torts from the former Malagasy republic.

: To be honest, I wouldn't mind selling my baby red eared sliders for $ 300 either....

: Of the many thousands of spiders that have been and will be exported into the US, most will die, without ever producing any viable offspring, as is the same with nearly all imported animals. It is a shame as much as it is a fact. However, if only 10 percent of these animals survive and reproduce, you have established new colonies of producers who are not subject to any bio conditions that might possibly destroy every Spider tort in Madagascar. The new colonies can supply the want ( demand ) in the US and thereby reduce or eliminate the need for additional animals to be exported in the future. In 20 years, it's quite possible that these exported animals will proliferate to the degree that more are produced in the US than are produced on the entire island of Madagascar, as has proven to be the case with African Sulcutta's.

: Unfortunately, this means that you will not be able to export your own wild caught, captive produced babies as you will have worldwide competition for your product. You will still have the advantage of being able to capture local animals but the law of supply and demand will make local production much less profitable.

: Please don't assume that qualified zoo's should be the only recepients of these animals as all zoos have their own hidden story to tell. Entire colonies of " confiscated " ( read ...free...)animals dead due to a mysterious disease or " rare " virus. Or worse yet, the disposal of fertile eggs because they can't be sold and the zoos have no room for additional animals nor other interested parties who are willing to take them. Such is the case, for example, with the Fiji island Iguana. Rare, endangered and with eggs being tossed out. No, don;t look to the zoos.

: I mean no disrespect to you and enjoy your information, comments and am envious of your successes and abilities but it seems to me that your main complaint is the financial suituation created by the simple imposition of the laws of supply and demand...

Follow Ups:

Re: The law of supply and demand...long Logic in Action 06/30/00 (2)
- Re: The law of supply and demand...long Olaf Pronk / Centre Soafiavy 06/30/00 (1)
  - sorry, typo olaf pronk / Centre Soafiavy 07/01/00 (0)

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: I am the first to admit that my main complaints have commercial motives and in fact said so in my original post. However, there is a difference between selling an animal for a million Dollars or one Dollar and selling an animal for $1500-$3000 or $300. The exporters in Ukraine would sell their horsfieldi at much better prices if only they would limit their exports to say 2000 or 3000 animals a year. The exporters, breeders and tortoises would be better off. I am not so sure if only the laws of supply and demand should be considered as we are dealing with live animals. Don't get me wrong, I am a commercial animal exporter and am very much in favour of the free market system but for certain species of animals, it is better in my opinion to have a regulated and limited supply. Pyxis should not become the next red-ears or Russians and this not only for my obvious commercial considerations. : Not thousends but hundreds of spiders have been imported into the USA. I agree that many of these tortoises will not live very long and if the price drops further, the survival rate will even become lower as people take less care for animals that are cheap, i.e. a different kind of buyer (unknowledgable, yes even ignorant) steps into the market. See what happens with the Red-eared sliders and Russians. Massive exports are disturbing to many and may result in total prohibition. : In general, I believe serious captive breeding operations in range countries can easily win the competition against breeding operations in importing countries because the climate is better, labor is cheaper and the cost to purchase the initial breeders is lower. : If the range countries of G.sulcata would have started breeding these animals some years ago instead of only exporting wild collected, they would have been controling the market. : After 2001, the Madagascar CITES management authority will no longer allow exports : of wild collected Pyxis anyway.so we'll have to compete with captive bred Pyxis only. We do have the advantage to have started breeding Pyxis five years earlier than breedres in the importing countries though. Our disadvantage is that Pyxis take quite some time to grow to four inches. : I agree completely with you that most zoos do not have very good records breeding reptiles. Of course, they breed species the private sector does not breed (Komodos, : Chinese alligators, Fiji iguanas) but that is only because not many people in the private sector have such animals. I have experienced enormous jealousy from major zoos when they learned we started working with some of these "high profile zoo exclusivities" such as Chinese alligators, Geochelone yniphora, Geochelone platynota and other species. : My best regards : Olaf Pronk : Centre Soafiavy / Soafiavy Export : Antananarivo : Madagascar : : : Yes, it would be ideal to sell one animal for a million dollars as opposed to selling a million animals for one dollar. Fortunately, the laws of supply and demand ultimately come into play and establish control. At one end of the spectrum you have Russian tort's and at the other you have Spiders. The collectors in the former Ukraine would love to sell their tort's for $300 each as is done with Spider torts from the former Malagasy republic. : : To be honest, I wouldn't mind selling my baby red eared sliders for $ 300 either.... : : Of the many thousands of spiders that have been and will be exported into the US, most will die, without ever producing any viable offspring, as is the same with nearly all imported animals. It is a shame as much as it is a fact. However, if only 10 percent of these animals survive and reproduce, you have established new colonies of producers who are not subject to any bio conditions that might possibly destroy every Spider tort in Madagascar. The new colonies can supply the want ( demand ) in the US and thereby reduce or eliminate the need for additional animals to be exported in the future. In 20 years, it's quite possible that these exported animals will proliferate to the degree that more are produced in the US than are produced on the entire island of Madagascar, as has proven to be the case with African Sulcutta's. : : Unfortunately, this means that you will not be able to export your own wild caught, captive produced babies as you will have worldwide competition for your product. You will still have the advantage of being able to capture local animals but the law of supply and demand will make local production much less profitable. : : Please don't assume that qualified zoo's should be the only recepients of these animals as all zoos have their own hidden story to tell. Entire colonies of " confiscated " ( read ...free...)animals dead due to a mysterious disease or " rare " virus. Or worse yet, the disposal of fertile eggs because they can't be sold and the zoos have no room for additional animals nor other interested parties who are willing to take them. Such is the case, for example, with the Fiji island Iguana. Rare, endangered and with eggs being tossed out. No, don;t look to the zoos. : : I mean no disrespect to you and enjoy your information, comments and am envious of your successes and abilities but it seems to me that your main complaint is the financial suituation created by the simple imposition of the laws of supply and demand...

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