won't prove anything

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Posted by brad on March 12, 2002 at 09:30:06:

In Reply to: Experiment posted by Justin on March 11, 2002 at 10:06:08:

You are using one animal.

No matter what the outcome, you won't be able to assign a definite cause.

In general, the response to any stimulus will vary among organisms. Some will do better than others. If the animal thrives, it could be due to the diet, it could be because this particular animal had a genetic predisposition to survive this type of diet, at least more so than others of its species.

If the animal suffers a horrible fate, maybe it's the diet, maybe the animal was going to suffer anyway.

But if you had a reasonably-sized group of animals (maybe 20), you could feel more confident that the results reflected the underlying cause, and not just some quirk related to an individual animal.

But, while you are at it, you'd better throw in a control group. In experiments of this sort you generally have to answer the question, "What would have happened if you had kept everything the same, except for the diet?" In other words, even if you have a large enough group of animals to establish a reasonable estimate of the effects of the diet, you still can't rule out that some other factor (such as temperature, humidity, exposure to sunlight) was influencing the outcome.
Maybe there was a breakdown in equipment due to power failure, or an unusual stretch of cloudy weather, etc., that compromised the effect of the diet and made your animals sicker that they otherwise would have been.

The answer: Another group of 20 (or so) tortoises that get the exact same treatment as the "Bok choy" group, except they get a traditionally recommended diet. You keep them in the same room or area of the yard, except in seperate enclosures. They get the same sun, water, soaking, etc. Then whatever differences you find can more reasonably be attributed to diet and not some other nuisance factor.

Finally, you'll have to determine what the outcomes of interest are and how you'll measure them. Will it be pyramiding, and how do you measure that? Shell hardness? Presence of kidney stones?

Since torts are fairly hardy, I'd think you'd have to select a time period and then sacrifice the animals for biopsy to determine the state of the kidneys, thickness of the shell, etc.

In other words, if you feed a hatchling a different diet for a few months, it won't prove anything. I wouldn't waste my time doing it.

Follow Ups:

Re: won't prove anything EJ 03/12/02 (22)
- Re: won't prove anything brad 03/12/02 (21)
  - Exactly. Christine 03/12/02 (0)
  - Re: won't prove anything Justin 03/12/02 (19)
    - Re: won't prove anything brad 03/12/02 (18)
      - I'm new, but... Quinn 03/12/02 (0)
      - One other thing Justin 03/12/02 (15)
        
        Re: One other thing brad 03/12/02 (14)
        
        Re: One other thing Justin 03/12/02 (12)
        
        Re: One other thing/ What about rubarb? Terry 03/13/02 (2)
        
        eeeek! nathan 03/13/02 (1)
        
        Re: eeeek! Terry 03/13/02 (0)
        
        Re: One other thing nathan 03/13/02 (4)
        
        Re: One other thing Justin 03/13/02 (3)
        
        why pets shouldn't be kept by children without adult supervision nathan 03/13/02 (2)
        
        justin-why? theresa 03/13/02 (0)
        
        Re: why pets shouldn't be kept by children without adult supervision theresa 03/13/02 (0)
        
        so... Quinn 03/12/02 (0)
        
        Hurrah! brad 03/12/02 (2)
        
        (idiot) n/p EJ 03/12/02 (1)
        
        tortoise smoocher! n/p brad 03/12/02 (0)
        
        Diets EJ 03/12/02 (0)
      - Please see two posts above this one. N/P Justin 03/12/02 (0)

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: You are using one animal. : No matter what the outcome, you won't be able to assign a definite cause. : In general, the response to any stimulus will vary among organisms. Some will do better than others. If the animal thrives, it could be due to the diet, it could be because this particular animal had a genetic predisposition to survive this type of diet, at least more so than others of its species. : If the animal suffers a horrible fate, maybe it's the diet, maybe the animal was going to suffer anyway. : But if you had a reasonably-sized group of animals (maybe 20), you could feel more confident that the results reflected the underlying cause, and not just some quirk related to an individual animal. : But, while you are at it, you'd better throw in a control group. In experiments of this sort you generally have to answer the question, "What would have happened if you had kept everything the same, except for the diet?" In other words, even if you have a large enough group of animals to establish a reasonable estimate of the effects of the diet, you still can't rule out that some other factor (such as temperature, humidity, exposure to sunlight) was influencing the outcome. : Maybe there was a breakdown in equipment due to power failure, or an unusual stretch of cloudy weather, etc., that compromised the effect of the diet and made your animals sicker that they otherwise would have been. : The answer: Another group of 20 (or so) tortoises that get the exact same treatment as the "Bok choy" group, except they get a traditionally recommended diet. You keep them in the same room or area of the yard, except in seperate enclosures. They get the same sun, water, soaking, etc. Then whatever differences you find can more reasonably be attributed to diet and not some other nuisance factor. : Finally, you'll have to determine what the outcomes of interest are and how you'll measure them. Will it be pyramiding, and how do you measure that? Shell hardness? Presence of kidney stones? : Since torts are fairly hardy, I'd think you'd have to select a time period and then sacrifice the animals for biopsy to determine the state of the kidneys, thickness of the shell, etc. : In other words, if you feed a hatchling a different diet for a few months, it won't prove anything. I wouldn't waste my time doing it.

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