How would that explain identically raised tortoises pyramiding so diff? np

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Posted by Cliff Wilt on May 23, 2000 at 12:20:23:

In Reply to: Protein and Pyramiding posted by Jerry Fife on May 22, 2000 at 23:46:39:

: The field of herpiculture is growing and expanding rapidly. Many reptiles that are readily available today have only been bred recently in captivity. Many of the tortoises we enjoy are only available because of dedicated individual that have been active in captive propogation. These individuals have gained much of their knowledge from a few sources that have not always proven to be correct. Information once published is often accepted as gospel and is frequently never questioned.

: The purpose of this post is to provide some empirical evidence and to provoke questions and initiate further study. My intent is to cause people to reconsider some of their current opionions and to maintain an open mind to new information or different perspectives.

: PYRAMIDING

: Pyramiding is bumps or pyramides on the tortoises shell. A tortoise should generally have a smooth shell, if each scute grows out creating a series of bumps this is called pyramiding.

: It is interesting to note that captive raised tortoises seems to have a much higher incidence of pyramiding than wild caught tortoises. What causes pyramiding in captive tortoises? The answer most often offered is diet, however I have seen tortosies raised on the same diet and one is pyramided and the other is not.

: Example 1- Redfoot tortoises

: The worst case of pyramiding that I ever saw was a captive raised redfoot tortoises. I responded to an ad for a captive raised three year old redfoot tortoises. This redfoot tortoise could best be described as a flat tortoise with a series of pyramides growing on its back. I remember thinking that they must feed that tortoises straight (protein) dog food, even though they indicated a reasonable diet.

: Knowing that many breeders feed redfoot tortoises dead mice and even hearing stories how a redfoot could catch mice by raising on all fours, then dropping on the mouse to crush it and then backing up to eat the mouse; I concluded that animal protein must not be the main factor in pyramiding.

: Example 2- Desert tortoise study at the Phoenix Zoo

: The Phoenix Zoo conducted an experiment on desert tortoises to determine growth rates and sexual maturity based on various diets. They have reported faster growth of tortoises with a high protein diet and have not seen evidence of pyramiding. This was after the first year, I have not heard an updated report.

: Example 3 - African Spurred Tortoise

: An individual purchased a couple hatchling African spurred tortoises. They were feed a proper diet the first year, however the individual lost interest in the tortoises and they were left in the yard the next five years and were provided no heat during the winter and were fed nothing but dog food. These tortoises had perfect shells! If someone were shown a dozen tortoises, these would be the tortoises that they would select based on their appearance. These beautiful tortoises with a smooth shell ate nothing but dog food for five years, without the slightest hint of pyramiding.

: Having seen one year old African spurred tortosies with pyramiding, and then seeing these adult tortoises which were raise on a high protein dies, without any pyramiding, I realized that protein must not be the main problem.

: This of course raises the next question, if it is not protein that causes pyramiding, what does?

: A Possible Answer-Humidity

: I believe the answer is humidity. Lets think back to the story of the redfoot tortoise (Example 1). The worse case of pyramiding that I have seen was in a captive bred tortoise native to South America. The tortoise was raised in Phoenix, Arizona, a location not known for its humidity. When temperatures exceed 110 degrees everyone thinks it is funny to say " but its a dry heat". I for one think it is just hot, but the tortoises I believe is affected by the "dry" heat. This redfoot tortoise was raised in a dry climate, with very little water or humidity. Could it have been the lack of humidity and not a high protein diet which caused the pyramiding?

: Let's consider the African spurred tortoise that were raised on high protein diet but had perfect shells. Were they not raised in the same low Arizona humidity" How about the desert tortoises (Example 3) native to Arizona, why aren't their shells pyramided?

: I think the answer lies in how these desert species cope with the heat and cold. African spurred tortoises, like desert tortoises dig burrow to protect themselves from the extreme temperatures they encounter. Except for the morning or early evening these tortoises hide in their comfortable, humid dens. These dens provide much more humidity than an indoor cage or an outside enclosure without a burrow.

: The owner of the African spurred tortoise left the tortoise in their yard and fed the tortoise dog food because that was easiest. The tortoise dug a den and this allowed the tortoise access to more humid conditions. Anyone that has allowed their tortoise to dig a burrow knows that they can be quite deep, plus the tortoises defecate creating even a higher humidity in the den. Burrows of desert tortoises can be quite deep also, and the moisture in the soil provides a much higher level of humidity in the tortoise burrow than on the floor of the desert.

: The redfoot tortoise was maintained indoors a cage, without the benefit of humidity, and even with a high fiber diet developed significant pyramiding.

: I present these examples as reasons why I do not think pyramiding is caused by protein. I do not recommend a diet of protein or challenge the health risk or the diet. I only want to provide some observations that I have made and the reasons for my opinion.

: I do not profess to know too much, but I do raise over a dozen species of tortoises and have learned a little from watching them.

: Hope you have healthy happy tortoises.

: Jerry Fife

Follow Ups:

Re: How would that explain identically raised tortoises pyramiding so diff? np Jerry 05/23/00 (0)
Re: How would that explain identically raised tortoises pyramiding so diff? np Eric T. 05/23/00 (5)
- Re: How would that explain identically raised tortoises pyramiding so diff? np A. C. Higfhfield 05/23/00 (4)
  - Re: How would that explain identically raised tortoises pyramiding so diff? np Richard Fife 05/24/00 (2)
    - Re: How would that explain identically raised tortoises pyramiding so diff? np bsw 05/24/00 (1)
      - Re: How would that explain identically raised tortoises pyramiding so diff? np Richard Fife 05/24/00 (0)
  - Re: How would that explain identically raised tortoises pyramiding so diff? np Brent 05/23/00 (0)

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: : The field of herpiculture is growing and expanding rapidly. Many reptiles that are readily available today have only been bred recently in captivity. Many of the tortoises we enjoy are only available because of dedicated individual that have been active in captive propogation. These individuals have gained much of their knowledge from a few sources that have not always proven to be correct. Information once published is often accepted as gospel and is frequently never questioned. : : The purpose of this post is to provide some empirical evidence and to provoke questions and initiate further study. My intent is to cause people to reconsider some of their current opionions and to maintain an open mind to new information or different perspectives. : : PYRAMIDING : : Pyramiding is bumps or pyramides on the tortoises shell. A tortoise should generally have a smooth shell, if each scute grows out creating a series of bumps this is called pyramiding. : : It is interesting to note that captive raised tortoises seems to have a much higher incidence of pyramiding than wild caught tortoises. What causes pyramiding in captive tortoises? The answer most often offered is diet, however I have seen tortosies raised on the same diet and one is pyramided and the other is not. : : Example 1- Redfoot tortoises : : The worst case of pyramiding that I ever saw was a captive raised redfoot tortoises. I responded to an ad for a captive raised three year old redfoot tortoises. This redfoot tortoise could best be described as a flat tortoise with a series of pyramides growing on its back. I remember thinking that they must feed that tortoises straight (protein) dog food, even though they indicated a reasonable diet. : : Knowing that many breeders feed redfoot tortoises dead mice and even hearing stories how a redfoot could catch mice by raising on all fours, then dropping on the mouse to crush it and then backing up to eat the mouse; I concluded that animal protein must not be the main factor in pyramiding. : : Example 2- Desert tortoise study at the Phoenix Zoo : : The Phoenix Zoo conducted an experiment on desert tortoises to determine growth rates and sexual maturity based on various diets. They have reported faster growth of tortoises with a high protein diet and have not seen evidence of pyramiding. This was after the first year, I have not heard an updated report. : : Example 3 - African Spurred Tortoise : : An individual purchased a couple hatchling African spurred tortoises. They were feed a proper diet the first year, however the individual lost interest in the tortoises and they were left in the yard the next five years and were provided no heat during the winter and were fed nothing but dog food. These tortoises had perfect shells! If someone were shown a dozen tortoises, these would be the tortoises that they would select based on their appearance. These beautiful tortoises with a smooth shell ate nothing but dog food for five years, without the slightest hint of pyramiding. : : Having seen one year old African spurred tortosies with pyramiding, and then seeing these adult tortoises which were raise on a high protein dies, without any pyramiding, I realized that protein must not be the main problem. : : This of course raises the next question, if it is not protein that causes pyramiding, what does? : : A Possible Answer-Humidity : : I believe the answer is humidity. Lets think back to the story of the redfoot tortoise (Example 1). The worse case of pyramiding that I have seen was in a captive bred tortoise native to South America. The tortoise was raised in Phoenix, Arizona, a location not known for its humidity. When temperatures exceed 110 degrees everyone thinks it is funny to say " but its a dry heat". I for one think it is just hot, but the tortoises I believe is affected by the "dry" heat. This redfoot tortoise was raised in a dry climate, with very little water or humidity. Could it have been the lack of humidity and not a high protein diet which caused the pyramiding? : : Let's consider the African spurred tortoise that were raised on high protein diet but had perfect shells. Were they not raised in the same low Arizona humidity" How about the desert tortoises (Example 3) native to Arizona, why aren't their shells pyramided? : : I think the answer lies in how these desert species cope with the heat and cold. African spurred tortoises, like desert tortoises dig burrow to protect themselves from the extreme temperatures they encounter. Except for the morning or early evening these tortoises hide in their comfortable, humid dens. These dens provide much more humidity than an indoor cage or an outside enclosure without a burrow. : : The owner of the African spurred tortoise left the tortoise in their yard and fed the tortoise dog food because that was easiest. The tortoise dug a den and this allowed the tortoise access to more humid conditions. Anyone that has allowed their tortoise to dig a burrow knows that they can be quite deep, plus the tortoises defecate creating even a higher humidity in the den. Burrows of desert tortoises can be quite deep also, and the moisture in the soil provides a much higher level of humidity in the tortoise burrow than on the floor of the desert. : : The redfoot tortoise was maintained indoors a cage, without the benefit of humidity, and even with a high fiber diet developed significant pyramiding. : : I present these examples as reasons why I do not think pyramiding is caused by protein. I do not recommend a diet of protein or challenge the health risk or the diet. I only want to provide some observations that I have made and the reasons for my opinion. : : I do not profess to know too much, but I do raise over a dozen species of tortoises and have learned a little from watching them. : : Hope you have healthy happy tortoises. : : Jerry Fife

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