Re: Protein doesn't cause pyramiding!

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Posted by Barbara K. on May 20, 2000 at 22:11:57:

In Reply to: Re: Protein doesn't cause pyramiding! posted by Terry on May 20, 2000 at 14:16:08:

Hi Terry!

Like probably many of the folks who have kept tortoises for more than 20 years, I've had to balance current trends in herptoculture against what I feel has worked for me. This is because I have yet to come across a really definative study on what the optimum diet is for captive tortoises.
It's all well and good to say "this has always worked for me", or "it makes perfect sense that (whatever)", but this is ALL pure conjecture. I do the best I can, but would prefer to read some solid research.

I'm a stubborn pain-in-the neck to all those friends of mine that advocate homeopathic or herbal products because my first question always is "WHEN WAS THE STUDY DONE? WHERE CAN I READ IT?".

Lacking such a study having been done on tortoise diet, I'm left trying to combine old (what worked for me) and new (current popular theories) methods of tortoise-feeding. I know I grew big, apparently very healthy, non-pyramided tortoises on a diet that included dog chow. But today it DOES make sense to me that the use of ultra-high animal proteins is not necessary and MAY be detrimental. Primate diet is lower in protein and not animal-protein-based. Chows have been always been a part, but not the only component, of my tortoise's diet.

I still have my dog-eared copy of the USDA manual "The Composition of Food" from 20 years ago, with all the food items I had circled that have high ratios of calcium to phosphorus. Lacking real research to refer to, I've always done the best I could with what knowledge has been available.

I don't think that Richard, in his message, advocated keeping tortoises only indoors and feeding them only tortoise chow, and certainly neither do I, nor have I ever. I'm SURE Richard's tortoises spend plenty of time grazing out there under the Arizona sun. What I think he was saying is that protein has not been proved to be a cause of pyramiding, and that the absolute adversion that's often shown to the use of ANY higher-protein source is unfounded. And I agree that it's unfounded, because NO COMPREHENSIVE STUDY HAS BEEN DONE.

I feel very confident every time I feed one of my show dogs his or her dinner of Nutro Lamb & Rice Dog Chow.. because LOTS of studies have been done on canine diet.

Tortoises need the same sort of attention. I'm eagerly awaiting some real research to be done, and if a source of protein such as primate diet is proved (by a real study, with control groups, etc) to cause pyramiding, I will drag my bag of it to the Franklin Park Zoo and donate it to the lemurs.

XXXXX Barbara K. ;-)

: Sulcatas it seems are more prone to pyramiding than other species.
: Of all the photos of captive bred tortoises I have seen, it's the sulcatas that show the highest percent of pyramiding, it seems to be very common.

: The vertict is out ( on the tortoise lists) that diet, environment, stress levels,water consumtion, exercise and individual metabolism all play their part.
: This makes perfect sense, a tortoise housed in a small enclosure with little chance of exercise and fed a high protein and fatty diet. Is not going to be as healthy as a tortoise that is housed outdoors , free to roam and graze on natural foods.

: Foods high in protein are known to cause health problems, bladder stones, liver disease and high blood urea levels are some of them. Although these may not show up for years.

: It seems that everybody has their own opinion.
: Free grazing in a large outdoor environment , works for me.
: Barbara although your leopards were on a high protein diet, they did spend time outdoors grazing and feeding on more natural types of food. They were not housed year round in an indoor enclosure solely on a high protein ( chow, pelleted diet)with no natural supplements.

: Why did you discontinue feeding the dog chow, if you believe that foods high in protein do not effect a tortoises health? Or did I misunderstand your post?

: Terry

Follow Ups:

Re: Protein doesn't cause pyramiding! A. C. Highfield 05/21/00 (0)
Re: Protein doesn't cause pyramiding! Terry. 05/20/00 (0)

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: Hi Terry! : Like probably many of the folks who have kept tortoises for more than 20 years, I've had to balance current trends in herptoculture against what I feel has worked for me. This is because I have yet to come across a really definative study on what the optimum diet is for captive tortoises. : It's all well and good to say "this has always worked for me", or "it makes perfect sense that (whatever)", but this is ALL pure conjecture. I do the best I can, but would prefer to read some solid research. : I'm a stubborn pain-in-the neck to all those friends of mine that advocate homeopathic or herbal products because my first question always is "WHEN WAS THE STUDY DONE? WHERE CAN I READ IT?". : Lacking such a study having been done on tortoise diet, I'm left trying to combine old (what worked for me) and new (current popular theories) methods of tortoise-feeding. I know I grew big, apparently very healthy, non-pyramided tortoises on a diet that included dog chow. But today it DOES make sense to me that the use of ultra-high animal proteins is not necessary and MAY be detrimental. Primate diet is lower in protein and not animal-protein-based. Chows have been always been a part, but not the only component, of my tortoise's diet. : I still have my dog-eared copy of the USDA manual "The Composition of Food" from 20 years ago, with all the food items I had circled that have high ratios of calcium to phosphorus. Lacking real research to refer to, I've always done the best I could with what knowledge has been available. : I don't think that Richard, in his message, advocated keeping tortoises only indoors and feeding them only tortoise chow, and certainly neither do I, nor have I ever. I'm SURE Richard's tortoises spend plenty of time grazing out there under the Arizona sun. What I think he was saying is that protein has not been proved to be a cause of pyramiding, and that the absolute adversion that's often shown to the use of ANY higher-protein source is unfounded. And I agree that it's unfounded, because NO COMPREHENSIVE STUDY HAS BEEN DONE. : I feel very confident every time I feed one of my show dogs his or her dinner of Nutro Lamb & Rice Dog Chow.. because LOTS of studies have been done on canine diet. : Tortoises need the same sort of attention. I'm eagerly awaiting some real research to be done, and if a source of protein such as primate diet is proved (by a real study, with control groups, etc) to cause pyramiding, I will drag my bag of it to the Franklin Park Zoo and donate it to the lemurs. : XXXXX Barbara K. ;-) : : Sulcatas it seems are more prone to pyramiding than other species. : : Of all the photos of captive bred tortoises I have seen, it's the sulcatas that show the highest percent of pyramiding, it seems to be very common. : : The vertict is out ( on the tortoise lists) that diet, environment, stress levels,water consumtion, exercise and individual metabolism all play their part. : : This makes perfect sense, a tortoise housed in a small enclosure with little chance of exercise and fed a high protein and fatty diet. Is not going to be as healthy as a tortoise that is housed outdoors , free to roam and graze on natural foods. : : Foods high in protein are known to cause health problems, bladder stones, liver disease and high blood urea levels are some of them. Although these may not show up for years. : : It seems that everybody has their own opinion. : : Free grazing in a large outdoor environment , works for me. : : Barbara although your leopards were on a high protein diet, they did spend time outdoors grazing and feeding on more natural types of food. They were not housed year round in an indoor enclosure solely on a high protein ( chow, pelleted diet)with no natural supplements. : : Why did you discontinue feeding the dog chow, if you believe that foods high in protein do not effect a tortoises health? Or did I misunderstand your post? : : Terry

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