return to main index

  mobile - desktop
follow us on facebook follow us on twitter follow us on YouTube link to us on LinkedIn
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research  
click here for Rodent Pro
Mice, Rats, Rabbits, Chicks, Quail
Available Now at RodentPro.com!
Locate a business by name: click to list your business
search the classifieds. buy an account
events by zip code list an event
Search the forums             Search in:
News & Events: Herp Photo of the Day: False Coral Snake . . . . . . . . . .  Herp Photo of the Day: Bearded Dragon . . . . . . . . . .  Greater Cincinnati Herp Society Meeting - Apr 02, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Calusa Herp Society Meeting - Apr 04, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Southwestern Herp Society Meeting - Apr 06, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Hamburg Reptile Show - Apr. 13, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  St. Louis Herpetological Society - Apr 14, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  San Diego Herp Society Meeting - Apr 16, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Suncoast Herp Society Meeting - Apr 20, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  DFW Herp Society Meeting - Apr 20, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Colorado Herp Society Meeting - Apr 20, 2024 . . . . . . . . . .  Chicago Herpetological Society Meeting - Apr 21, 2024 . . . . . . . . . . 

Re: Protein doesn't cause pyramiding!


[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Tortoise Forum ] [ FAQ ]

Posted by Barbara K. on May 20, 2000 at 00:42:32:

In Reply to: Protein doesn't cause pyramiding! posted by Richard Fife on May 19, 2000 at 11:00:38:

I'm sure glad you brought this one up, Richard!!!!
The low-protein theory has had me pretty flummoxed.. it SEEMS logical, but it doesn't fit my prior experiences. In 1971 I acquired a number (about 8, weirdly enough, all female) of wild-caught Geopchelone pardalis, the biggest weighing about a pound. I fed them a diet heavy in dandilion greens and chicory (cichoreum, not the curly endive), but also in soaked Purina Dog Chow, as well as monkey chow. I also used cooked butternut squash or frozen corn and carrots liberally mixed with a 3:1 calcium/phosphorus/ product called Osteoform, which also included vitamin A, C and D3.

If any of these torts had health problems, I sure never saw any.. by the mid-80's the largest female reached 40 pounds. NONE ever exhibited the slightest pyramiding. Ever!! I have dug out photos of these and will try to somehow post them. These torts produced eggs like mad.. (Alas,I never found a male, as leopards got very scarce after I got my first ones). I ended up placing the torts when I had to move where I couldn't keep them.

Once again I'm raising leopards (including a couple of absolute BEAUTIES from Richard), and am using pretty much the same diet as I did before, minus the dog chow. My bigger torts (15 pounds currently being the biggest) free-graze in a fenced yard in warm weather, and I otherwise pick them plenty of dandilion greens, plantain, chicory, grape leaves and wild violet greens (viola). In winter, I have a good commercial source of dandilion greens and chicory, and I also grow lawn-grass indoors under lights. Once a week (year-round) I feed grated butternut squash liberally mixed with a calcium carbonate product, and twice a week feed soaked monkey chow. As a calcium supplement, I currently use Rep-cal or Herpcare (both no-phosphorus), but I will probably resume using Osteoform once I locate a source for it, as it includes not only D3, but a complex of vitamins also necessary for good bone developement. I first learned about Osteoform when I was a volunteer at The Boston Museum of Science in the early 70's and helped out at their animal center, which housed large torts. Aside from being a great product, it's also far less expensive than most of the calcium supplements that are marketed strictly for herps.

Once again, NONE of my torts is pyramiding, or exhibiting any visible health problems.

What needs to be done is a real scientific STUDY on how much protein tortoises can utilize for optimum health.

I'm really glad that Richard had the courage to bring this topic up!!!! I've gone into instant lurk-mode when the subject arose, because the prevailing "extreme low protein" theories contradict my experience.

I have friends who have large torts that are pyramided.. these torts were raised on large quantities of cucumbers, apples, strawberries, melons, and other "empty" foods.. NOT high-protein foods. My suspicion would be insufficient calcium and a general lack of nutrition as a cause of these torts pyramiding.. but then, as I said, a real STUDY needs to be done.

THANK YOU, RICHARD!!! You deserve a medal of valor for bring this up.

Regards,

Barbara

: Protein doesn’t cause pyramiding!

: I have been very hesitant in stating my opinion that “high” protein levels are not the major factor in causing pyramiding in tortoises; because of the flack I will receive and that diet and proper protein levels are very important to the health of a tortoise. The myth of protein causing pyramiding has been propitiated and promoted for too long!

: On the positive side, by promoting high protein as the cause of pyramiding people’s attentions have been directed to diet. This however has masked the real cause of pyramiding and has stifled research into other possible causes. Unfortunately almost all information concerning protein and pyramiding has been antidotal and there has been very little (if any) “good” scientific research into the problem. Why would a researcher look into other causes of pyramiding when it is the prevailing thought that high protein is the cause? Most researchers may not even know the real questions to ask or what other possible causes there could be.

: Most hobbyists don’t really understand what protein is, why it is important in the diet, it’s relationship to other nutrients, or even what a normal level or high level actually is. All they know is that protein is (supposedly) bad!

: After working with tortoises for over 35 years I have found that if I raise tortoises in an environmental chamber (producing correct environmental conditions) I can produce tortoises with perfect shells. It makes no difference what the protein level is except that if protein levels are too low the tortoises will not survive!

: It is time we start looking at our husbandry techniques and try to define the environmental conditions that promote natural growth and stop blaming pyramiding on to much protein. I certainly don’t have the answers but I know we are “barking up the wrong tree”.

: I am not proposing that we ignore diet. Diet is extremely important in raising a healthy tortoise. I am proposing that we start looking beyond protein to find the complete answer and cause of pyramiding.

: Thank you,

: Richard Fife




Follow Ups:



Post a Followup

Name:
E-Mail:

Subject:

Comments:

Optional Link URL:
Link Title:
Optional Image URL:


[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ The Tortoise Forum ] [ FAQ ]