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Posted by matt m on April 15, 2002 at 02:24:45:
In Reply to: Re: My opinion.......... posted by matt m on April 15, 2002 at 02:16:40:
please describe how you are certain that the blacktails are related? Is it intuition?
Matt M
: Certainly, your point is that because of small isolated ranges inbreeding occurs. Also, I am familiar with the habitat "islands" in the desert that exist out here in the south-west.
: On an aside, perhaps were at odds because we do not agree what inbreeding is. I'm talking about first degree-father to daughter, brother to sister, etc.
: If this is what you think too, then, considering what I said before this is where I'm at.
: OK, so there's a small range, how many animals are there? What's the population density?
: For an example of why population density may not correspond to area a question may be "Are prey items limited to the range of the snake?" Even though a snake's range may be restricted its prey may not. What's the traffic rate and flux of prey animals into the snake's territory? Essentially, a deceptively different population structure can thrive in a surprisingly small area. Difficult to take an accurate population sample. How large a population exists is not entirely dependent on area? How many snakes can be crammed into a 1/4 mile stretch of slope? Does this number automatically correlate with inbreeding? Perhaps by inbreeding you include breeding with second cousins, etc. All I was asking for was support for your hypothesis that "small ranges equal inbreeding" in place of a restatment of your hypothesis. So, in your humble opinion, how many animals live in that 1/4 mile area? How many are products of 1st degree inbreeding?
: Kerby I'm truly interested in your logic and your facts and your consequent detail of support you bring to this discussion. Opinions stated as fact don't add to my understanding.
: matt m
: : :)
: : Matt, all I'm saying is that in some species, like pyros where they live and die in about 1/4 mile area, they are ALL related. There are pyros in the Bradshaws Mts here in the Prescott area, ALL OVER, but in "pockets". In those population pockets, IMO, they are all related. In some locales of rosy boas, ie. Harquahala Mts in Arizona I believe they are also ALL RELATED. Their range is strictly THAT Mt. range and throughout time they are all related. I realize that in some species of snakes that their local population range is quite extensive (WDB for instance) so in-breeding may not be as common as say Arizona Black Rattlesnakes THAT DO IN-BREED because of their "very small" local range. Arizona Black Rattlesnakes in the high country here in Arizona DO NOT venture too far from their den sites, even during the summer. I would venture to say that on a south facing slope that at a particular den site - ALL the Arizona Blacks at that den site are related. Unlike cal kings and gopher snakes that travel quite a bit. A male may never meet up with the same female year after year. I do not believe that rosy boas travel as far as kings and gophers. I still say that inbreeding in snakes is common in the wild. And yes, predation takes it's toll every year (assuming no human intervention) and the population can remain stable. Inbreeding occurs in other animals as well. Beaver, muscrats, deer, raccoons, RODENTS, etc....... And it occurs in snakes.
: : Cheers.
: : Kerby...
