I may have been a little off track.....

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Posted by Terry Cox on February 17, 2002 at 11:51:19:

In Reply to: Actually I was... posted by Jim Demirjian on February 17, 2002 at 10:05:00:

You were referring to egg incubation mostly, and I was talking husbandry in general. Didn't mean to muddy the waters. Just meant that observing wild caught snakes helps us understand natural behaviors and requirements.

Being as we work with Asian ratsnakes a lot, I'm assuming that others, like me, sometimes work with wild caught, or close to wild caught animals. This is where the natural instincts are the strongest, I think. Even after a generation, or two, the instincts can still be strong. We can learn a lot about them by our observation, IMO.

I mentioned field work because of what you can observe and learn in the field. Like you, I carry photo equipment and like to record what I observe in the field that is informational. I also collect a speciman from time to time to bring home to study for a short time. I don't collect for my collection though, although other people sometimes do. Sometimes we purchase a speciman from someone who has wild collected it, or bred it from wild caughts. I don't mean you do, but herpers in general. I guess this is what got me off track.

As far as incubating mediums, I'm pretty much a firm believer in vermiculite, or after last summer, possibly perlite also. I've hatched colubrid eggs in other ways, however, in the past. I've hatched them in sphagnum, earth, sand, etc. I've seen them under objects and in rotting logs in the wild. I pretty much believe that temperature and humidity are the key factors, and not so much the medium, and that colubrid eggs are quite easy to work with, as long as you avoid fungal growth. Some folks don't use an incubator at all, because their herp room remains near 80*F, which is a good incubating temp. I expect you can get good results using various natural mediums too. Good luck this summer, Jim.

: I was referring to egg incubation when I spoke of using more natural mediums. As far as my own collection goes, I use a variety of enclosures, substances, and surfaces for my animals. Some are natural and others are far from it. With the incubation of eggs though, I believe that observing what the animals have used in the wild is a good indicator of materials (or like) to use in captives for the given species. To do this one only has to get out in the field, I don�t know why you mentioned catching animals and releasing them�wouldn�t that nullify most natural behaviors? *Not to mention the danger this pose to wild populations. I personally bring more cameras out in the field, rather than collecting bags.
: I agree that captive animals are very different from wild specimens (in my opinion this is not in a good way), but does the animal physically change? Do their eggs? Nope
: I totally agree with you in that everyone should find what works for him or her best some don�t have access to the same materials etc. Ones own observations are always priceless insight! Thanks
: JD

:
: : I can see where keeping everything natural is nice and maybe you get to see more of the real herp. I like to learn as much as I can from the natural behaviors of the species I'm working with, however, I feel that as soon as you've had them in captivity for a short time, you've made some changes in that herp. You add in the fact that in most states you can't release them after about a month, or so, and basically we have a pet. I took me a long time to reach this conclusion, but I do feel that we have a pet, and we are gradually changing that animal over time. I like to think we change them for the better and end up breeding the best pets we can make and then can share with other people. Just my 2 cents worth. Hope ya' donna mind.

: : PS: I've always pretty much gone by my own instincts and observations. Sure, much in the literature is valuable, but I like going by what's best for me and my animals. I'd say you're on the right track as far as I'm concerned. Do you do much field work, Jim? It has helped me a lot through the years.

: : Good luck this coming year.

: : TC

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it is always good to know that others share.. Jim Demirjian 02/17/02 (0)

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: You were referring to egg incubation mostly, and I was talking husbandry in general. Didn't mean to muddy the waters. Just meant that observing wild caught snakes helps us understand natural behaviors and requirements. : Being as we work with Asian ratsnakes a lot, I'm assuming that others, like me, sometimes work with wild caught, or close to wild caught animals. This is where the natural instincts are the strongest, I think. Even after a generation, or two, the instincts can still be strong. We can learn a lot about them by our observation, IMO. : I mentioned field work because of what you can observe and learn in the field. Like you, I carry photo equipment and like to record what I observe in the field that is informational. I also collect a speciman from time to time to bring home to study for a short time. I don't collect for my collection though, although other people sometimes do. Sometimes we purchase a speciman from someone who has wild collected it, or bred it from wild caughts. I don't mean you do, but herpers in general. I guess this is what got me off track. : As far as incubating mediums, I'm pretty much a firm believer in vermiculite, or after last summer, possibly perlite also. I've hatched colubrid eggs in other ways, however, in the past. I've hatched them in sphagnum, earth, sand, etc. I've seen them under objects and in rotting logs in the wild. I pretty much believe that temperature and humidity are the key factors, and not so much the medium, and that colubrid eggs are quite easy to work with, as long as you avoid fungal growth. Some folks don't use an incubator at all, because their herp room remains near 80*F, which is a good incubating temp. I expect you can get good results using various natural mediums too. Good luck this summer, Jim. : TC : : I was referring to egg incubation when I spoke of using more natural mediums. As far as my own collection goes, I use a variety of enclosures, substances, and surfaces for my animals. Some are natural and others are far from it. With the incubation of eggs though, I believe that observing what the animals have used in the wild is a good indicator of materials (or like) to use in captives for the given species. To do this one only has to get out in the field, I don�t know why you mentioned catching animals and releasing them�wouldn�t that nullify most natural behaviors? *Not to mention the danger this pose to wild populations. I personally bring more cameras out in the field, rather than collecting bags. : : I agree that captive animals are very different from wild specimens (in my opinion this is not in a good way), but does the animal physically change? Do their eggs? Nope : : I totally agree with you in that everyone should find what works for him or her best some don�t have access to the same materials etc. Ones own observations are always priceless insight! Thanks : : JD : : : : : I can see where keeping everything natural is nice and maybe you get to see more of the real herp. I like to learn as much as I can from the natural behaviors of the species I'm working with, however, I feel that as soon as you've had them in captivity for a short time, you've made some changes in that herp. You add in the fact that in most states you can't release them after about a month, or so, and basically we have a pet. I took me a long time to reach this conclusion, but I do feel that we have a pet, and we are gradually changing that animal over time. I like to think we change them for the better and end up breeding the best pets we can make and then can share with other people. Just my 2 cents worth. Hope ya' donna mind. : : : PS: I've always pretty much gone by my own instincts and observations. Sure, much in the literature is valuable, but I like going by what's best for me and my animals. I'd say you're on the right track as far as I'm concerned. Do you do much field work, Jim? It has helped me a lot through the years. : : : Good luck this coming year. : : : TC

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