Re: Tx rat feeding, shedding, and growth ?s - really long

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Posted by patricia sherman on August 08, 2001 at 00:28:09:

In Reply to: Tx rat feeding, shedding, and growth ?s - really long posted by Kristen on August 07, 2001 at 22:11:50:

: I have had a wild caught Tx rat,about 21 in long

This baby is probably about nine to 12 months old. I have four yearling obsoletas, from one clutch. Their lengths are: 38", 28", 26", and 23". My two guttatas (corns) are 14 months old. Their lengths are: 31" and 29".

Adult size for your lindheimeri (Texas Rat), is closer to the obsoletas than the guttatas. At 21", if it was feeding well in the wild, your snake would likely be about 6 months old. I doubt it fed that well, and expect that it would grow more slowly than a captive-bred baby.

At this age, I'm still feeding my "kids" about every five or six days. They're now taking pinky rats, and/or fuzzy mice. Usually two each per feeding. The only exception is the smallest one, which is still being fed about every four or five days, and is taking three or four pinky/velvet mice per meal. These babies usually shed after approximately every fifth or sixth meal. Prior to shedding, and before their eyes cloud over, they exhibit depressed appetite. Sometimes, one will fast for three weeks or more prior to shedding. I'd guess that this is the stage at which your little guy is right now.

: for about six weeks (first snake). I don't remove him from his tank to feed,

Most of my "kids" are living together in one tank (the smallest lives alone). I put them each into separate small cages for feeding, clean their house while they're out of it, then return them after they've finished eating. If the post-feeding handling is done very gently, and is minimal, it doesn't cause regurgitation.

: but I put a thawed frozen fuzzie in a small cardboard box and lay it on it's side in the tank while we have the snake out. When we put him back in the tank, he seems at first repelled by the mouse and goes into his hide, but then he has always come back for it anywhere up to two hours later ...

One of the advantages of doing it the way I do, is that they don't have access to their hide, so they become restless. Consequently, they find the prey and eat it very shortly after it is offered; never longer than 15 or 20 minutes, usually starting within ten minutes. If one hasn't started to feed within 15 minutes, I cover its cage, so that there's nothing moving outside to distract it, then leave it for an hour. If it hasn't fed by then, I put it back in their house with the others, and leave it until next feeding day. Then, when that day comes, I assume that it's getting ready to shed, and only offer it a mouse pinky at first. If it is pre-shed, it usually won't take the snack. If it does take it, then I offer it the full meal, and it usually eats normally and hungrily.

: I remove the box once he's eaten and then we don't handle him for two days. Last week, on the regular feeding day, he didn't eat the mouse that was left all night (he only seems to come out voluntarily at night) so I threw it away

Had you left it only for an hour or two, you could have refrozen it, since it wouldn't have deteriorated significantly in so short a time. Leaving it overnight is wasteful. The reason that people don't/can't eat twice-frozen food, is due to the loss of flavour, and fact that in twice-freezing the food loses texture. This isn't a consideration with pinkies and fuzzies. The snakes eat them even when they've been refrozen a couple of times. There's no loss of nutritional value, just flavour and texture (qualities which the snake doesn't appreciate).

: and tried again the next night. He ate that night.

Good. But it wouldn't have hurt him at all to have waited for a few more nights.

: Last night we handled him for a while before putting him back in his tank with the fuzzie already in there and he did not eat all night.

I'm fairly sure that he's in pre-shed stage, and that his eyes will cloud over within the next few days.

: My questions are: are there potential problems to feeding in this manner?

No. But I don't feel it's the most efficient way to do it.

: Are we handling him too much before feeding - we like to since we don't bother him for two days after?

It is good practice to let the animal have quiet time for a few hours before mealtime. The more you handle him, the more gentle he'll become, and that's not a bad thing at all; however, I think he'd do best if the handling was limited to no more than about an hour per day. One thing I've found with my babiies, is that they like to coil around my wrist and rest there (even for several hours at a stretch), if I'll leave them undisturbed while they're there. They enjoy the warmth from my body. There's a vast difference between this passive type of "handling", and the active handling to which I believe you are referring, in which the baby is slithering around between your fingers, etc. It is the active handling that I'd put limits on.

: If he doesn't eat, do I try again the next night or wait until the next week

I'd wait a few days. If this was my snake, I'd feed more frequently (about five-day intervals).

: (I hate to throw away many fuzzies)

See my comments, above.

: He seems to have grown a couple of inches since we've had him, and he is definitely larger around - but he has shown no signs of shedding

I doubt that he's gained much, if any, length in the past three or four weeks. The shedding is to accomodate growth. Since the skin cannot stretch very much when it is old, the snake needs a new skin to grow into. Possibly, and this is just a guess, he may have last shedded only a day or so before he was captured.

: except he has had a few dry flakes or pieces of scales around his head (soaking did not seem to help as he never put his head in the water)

That isn't shedding. It may have been skin left over from the last shed. When he does shed, the entire skin should come off in one inverted sheath.

: How often might he shed and how long does a shed take?

Pre-shed can last for two or three weeks, sometimes more. The actual process of shedding, once it has begun, takes less than an hour.

: Also I have been told that he might grow to 4 1/2 to 6 feet

My obsoleta parents (very closely related to lindheimeri), are both over six-ft long. The male is seven-ft.

I believe that about five-to-six feet is about average for lindheimeri, but over six-ft isn't rare.

: but will he stay relatively thin?

Yes. All Elaphe species are very slender animals.

Good luck,
Patricia

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: : I have had a wild caught Tx rat,about 21 in long : This baby is probably about nine to 12 months old. I have four yearling obsoletas, from one clutch. Their lengths are: 38", 28", 26", and 23". My two guttatas (corns) are 14 months old. Their lengths are: 31" and 29". : Adult size for your lindheimeri (Texas Rat), is closer to the obsoletas than the guttatas. At 21", if it was feeding well in the wild, your snake would likely be about 6 months old. I doubt it fed that well, and expect that it would grow more slowly than a captive-bred baby. : At this age, I'm still feeding my "kids" about every five or six days. They're now taking pinky rats, and/or fuzzy mice. Usually two each per feeding. The only exception is the smallest one, which is still being fed about every four or five days, and is taking three or four pinky/velvet mice per meal. These babies usually shed after approximately every fifth or sixth meal. Prior to shedding, and before their eyes cloud over, they exhibit depressed appetite. Sometimes, one will fast for three weeks or more prior to shedding. I'd guess that this is the stage at which your little guy is right now. : : for about six weeks (first snake). I don't remove him from his tank to feed, : Most of my "kids" are living together in one tank (the smallest lives alone). I put them each into separate small cages for feeding, clean their house while they're out of it, then return them after they've finished eating. If the post-feeding handling is done very gently, and is minimal, it doesn't cause regurgitation. : : but I put a thawed frozen fuzzie in a small cardboard box and lay it on it's side in the tank while we have the snake out. When we put him back in the tank, he seems at first repelled by the mouse and goes into his hide, but then he has always come back for it anywhere up to two hours later ... : One of the advantages of doing it the way I do, is that they don't have access to their hide, so they become restless. Consequently, they find the prey and eat it very shortly after it is offered; never longer than 15 or 20 minutes, usually starting within ten minutes. If one hasn't started to feed within 15 minutes, I cover its cage, so that there's nothing moving outside to distract it, then leave it for an hour. If it hasn't fed by then, I put it back in their house with the others, and leave it until next feeding day. Then, when that day comes, I assume that it's getting ready to shed, and only offer it a mouse pinky at first. If it is pre-shed, it usually won't take the snack. If it does take it, then I offer it the full meal, and it usually eats normally and hungrily. : : : I remove the box once he's eaten and then we don't handle him for two days. Last week, on the regular feeding day, he didn't eat the mouse that was left all night (he only seems to come out voluntarily at night) so I threw it away : Had you left it only for an hour or two, you could have refrozen it, since it wouldn't have deteriorated significantly in so short a time. Leaving it overnight is wasteful. The reason that people don't/can't eat twice-frozen food, is due to the loss of flavour, and fact that in twice-freezing the food loses texture. This isn't a consideration with pinkies and fuzzies. The snakes eat them even when they've been refrozen a couple of times. There's no loss of nutritional value, just flavour and texture (qualities which the snake doesn't appreciate). : : and tried again the next night. He ate that night. : Good. But it wouldn't have hurt him at all to have waited for a few more nights. : : Last night we handled him for a while before putting him back in his tank with the fuzzie already in there and he did not eat all night. : I'm fairly sure that he's in pre-shed stage, and that his eyes will cloud over within the next few days. : : My questions are: are there potential problems to feeding in this manner? : No. But I don't feel it's the most efficient way to do it. : : Are we handling him too much before feeding - we like to since we don't bother him for two days after? : It is good practice to let the animal have quiet time for a few hours before mealtime. The more you handle him, the more gentle he'll become, and that's not a bad thing at all; however, I think he'd do best if the handling was limited to no more than about an hour per day. One thing I've found with my babiies, is that they like to coil around my wrist and rest there (even for several hours at a stretch), if I'll leave them undisturbed while they're there. They enjoy the warmth from my body. There's a vast difference between this passive type of "handling", and the active handling to which I believe you are referring, in which the baby is slithering around between your fingers, etc. It is the active handling that I'd put limits on. : : If he doesn't eat, do I try again the next night or wait until the next week : I'd wait a few days. If this was my snake, I'd feed more frequently (about five-day intervals). : : (I hate to throw away many fuzzies) : See my comments, above. : : He seems to have grown a couple of inches since we've had him, and he is definitely larger around - but he has shown no signs of shedding : I doubt that he's gained much, if any, length in the past three or four weeks. The shedding is to accomodate growth. Since the skin cannot stretch very much when it is old, the snake needs a new skin to grow into. Possibly, and this is just a guess, he may have last shedded only a day or so before he was captured. : : except he has had a few dry flakes or pieces of scales around his head (soaking did not seem to help as he never put his head in the water) : That isn't shedding. It may have been skin left over from the last shed. When he does shed, the entire skin should come off in one inverted sheath. : : How often might he shed and how long does a shed take? : Pre-shed can last for two or three weeks, sometimes more. The actual process of shedding, once it has begun, takes less than an hour. : : Also I have been told that he might grow to 4 1/2 to 6 feet : My obsoleta parents (very closely related to lindheimeri), are both over six-ft long. The male is seven-ft. : I believe that about five-to-six feet is about average for lindheimeri, but over six-ft isn't rare. : : : but will he stay relatively thin? : Yes. All Elaphe species are very slender animals. : Good luck, : Patricia

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