Re: E. emoryi??? NOT!

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Posted by trey harrison on April 02, 2001 at 11:08:49:

In Reply to: E. emoryi??? NOT! posted by Tom Lott on March 23, 2001 at 19:56:19:

Tom,
I'm merely a Kansas resident who teaches biology and has a love of herps. I know Joe fairly well. Joe Collins seems like he has a tendency to wax authoritative in all matters taxonomic. In his defense, however, he subscribes to the Evolutionary Species Concept (G.G. Simpson, Wiley, and others) and not the (my opinion) outdated/outmoded Biological Species Concept (E. Mayr). Hibbits analysis seems to be using the BSC. The BSC uses reproductive isolation as the determiner for distinct species, whereas the ESC considers whether lineages have evolved separately from one another. No where does the ESC espouse that intergradation cannot occur. In fact, it is expected to occur here and there. It does not detract from the fact that a species is a unit of evolution. If two or more lineages have evolved on distinct paths to the point where they are distinct, then that is good enough for species status (IMPT.- It is implicit that there has to be a fair amount of repro. isolation for divergent evolution. Additionally, reproductive isolation is not necessarily geographic isolation). The ESC is much more practical for evolutionary ecology, biogeography, and efforts to conserve biodiversity. Collins definitely fits into this camp, so let's not be too hard on him. And while there may be disagreement over Collin's arrangements of some taxa, many do agree that current arrangements are extremely artificial and in need of revision.

Trey Harrison

Fred,

: This is just another example of Joe Collins shooting from the hip, using his position with the SSAR to make controversial taxonomic rearrangements without doing any primary (and little secondary) research at all, even ignoring or misinterpreting research that disagrees with his conclusions.

: The SSAR document is not the bible! No one is obliged to follow its arrangements (unless, of course, you want to get your paper published by the SSAR). A great many highly experienced taxonomists disagree with Collins' approach and his proposed arrangements.

: For a cogent analysis of this question by Troy Hibbits, follow the link to a recent discussion on the taxonomy forum.

: Tom Lott

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: Tom, : I'm merely a Kansas resident who teaches biology and has a love of herps. I know Joe fairly well. Joe Collins seems like he has a tendency to wax authoritative in all matters taxonomic. In his defense, however, he subscribes to the Evolutionary Species Concept (G.G. Simpson, Wiley, and others) and not the (my opinion) outdated/outmoded Biological Species Concept (E. Mayr). Hibbits analysis seems to be using the BSC. The BSC uses reproductive isolation as the determiner for distinct species, whereas the ESC considers whether lineages have evolved separately from one another. No where does the ESC espouse that intergradation cannot occur. In fact, it is expected to occur here and there. It does not detract from the fact that a species is a unit of evolution. If two or more lineages have evolved on distinct paths to the point where they are distinct, then that is good enough for species status (IMPT.- It is implicit that there has to be a fair amount of repro. isolation for divergent evolution. Additionally, reproductive isolation is not necessarily geographic isolation). The ESC is much more practical for evolutionary ecology, biogeography, and efforts to conserve biodiversity. Collins definitely fits into this camp, so let's not be too hard on him. And while there may be disagreement over Collin's arrangements of some taxa, many do agree that current arrangements are extremely artificial and in need of revision. : Trey Harrison : : Fred, : : This is just another example of Joe Collins shooting from the hip, using his position with the SSAR to make controversial taxonomic rearrangements without doing any primary (and little secondary) research at all, even ignoring or misinterpreting research that disagrees with his conclusions. : : The SSAR document is not the bible! No one is obliged to follow its arrangements (unless, of course, you want to get your paper published by the SSAR). A great many highly experienced taxonomists disagree with Collins' approach and his proposed arrangements. : : For a cogent analysis of this question by Troy Hibbits, follow the link to a recent discussion on the taxonomy forum. : : Tom Lott

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