Re: Will we ever learn..... The mandarin story

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Posted by Joe Monahan on October 12, 2000 at 01:49:22:

In Reply to: Re: Will we ever learn..... The mandarin story posted by JKellar on August 03, 2000 at 16:25:45:

I've never understood why the host countries don't do more to get involved with the captive reproduction of the species they are exporting.

: Hi Walt,
: Your quite right, E. Mandarina was a very poor example to ponder such questions, the amount of E. mandarina and other Asian Ratsnakes, that are being collected and dying is quite appaling no matter what a person's opinion is on commercial collecting.
: I often find myself in quite a quandry with my commercial collecting views, as I have to acknowledge that some species would not be available if not for some collecting/importing, therebye allowing us (herpetoculturists) to begin captive breeding programs and hopefully, decreasing demand for wild caught specimens. I'm always in a personal battle with my own conscience to not be hypocritical, sometimes it's hard
: John

: :
: : : I pretty much agree with what you are saying, I myself don't keep wild caught snakes of any kind, plenty captive bred available, don't want to contaminate my collection, etc. but, being the devil's advocate today, if you didn't receive wild caught and thru much valiante effort and hardship no doubt, nobody would have captive bred, same with Gillingham here in the states who I believe produced them around '88, so who decides who get's the wild caught ones?, who gets to attempt to produce them?, who decides when there are enough being produced (they are fairly still hard to get ahold of even at $500) to stop importing WC?
: : : John
: : : P.S. Have you seen the guy who posted down below that he can't get an Asian ratsnake (don't remember species, without looking, maybe Mandarin)to eat, and then the very next post, is the same guy inquiring how to get some other hard to keep alive species? Makes your post very applicable and timely. LOL

: : :
: : : : I hear it over and over again. "I just bought a wild caught Elaphe mandarina. What should I do to keep it alive?"
: : : : Why.. why.. why..
: : : : Yes wild captured animals are cheaper.... much cheaper, but there are cb on the market, and their numbers are increasing.
: : : : How many mandarins that are imported over the years into USA and Europe are counted in ten thousands, and how many survives their first year...... Almost NONE. They are always suffering from various parasites, stress and dehydration, and it takes years to get them established into captivity, if ever.
: : : : My story with my mandarins should scare most reptile keepers, AND IT HAD A SUCCESSFUL ENDING:
: : : : An adult pair was imported to Europe in 1981. They were placed in an outdoor terrarium for 2 years, and placed afterwards in a typical terrarium. The bottom was filled with long plastic tupes going from one corner (hot and dry) to the other (cold and moist).
: : : : I didn`t see the animals for several years outside these tupes. They ate only 2-3 newborn rats every year, but looked OK. In 1989 they started showing themself at times at night and began eating a little more. In 1990 they gained a little weight and began eating in the Autum too. Before that it was only just after hibernation. I always hibernated them for 4-5 months very cold, and finally in 1991 I got my first juveniles. WHO HAS THE TIME FOR THAT. Remember the first clutch of mandarins was in 1989 made by Gillingham and M�nzenmaier, so there were many trying and trying to brake the key without success.
: : : : Some years ago there were 2 very skilled Asian ratsnake breeders that went to China and brought back about 200 mandarins and moellendorffi. These animals were quickly moved from the wild and into captivity. The idea was that the survival rate should be much higher but even seperately kept, almost all died shortly after.
: : : : The year is now 2000 and there are frequently captive bred mandarins for sale, and still there are imported so many animals to a surtain death.
: : : : This is not only for mandarins, but for many other ratsnakes too especially the Asian ones.
: : : : Do we REALLY want these animals..... Pay the price (I know it is hard I just ordered porphyracea cb`s)or forget keeping them. Don`t experience if you arn`t a very skilled Vet and ratsnake keeper.
: : : : Best wishes
: : : : S�e

: : Hey JKeller,

: : I've read posts by you (and agreed with your thoughts) on the Field Collecting Forum where, like most of us, you've indicated that you were extremely opposed to commercial collecting. These mandarina are being commercially exploited with almost nothing to show for it. The incredible percentage loss far outweighs any possible benefit that we could possibly derive by continuing to import these animals. You are also being absolutely fair when you rightfully ask, why should some get the chance and not others. Who decides which individuals should get the chance? I think that the answer is, that as a group we need to learn from history so as not to continue the same failed efforts. We know that for the most part, the imported thing doesn't work. Applaud the success of those that have managed to acclimate imports and start successful breeding programs, and through discussions like this, educate the people who would choose the import route to the fact that they are chasing a mirage. Hopefully more will choose captives and eventually the flow and harvet of commercially collected mandarina into this country will cease.

: : For the record, I am one who has worked with imports will a small degree of success and numerous failures as well. I have become educated and hopefully can help to prevent others from making the same failed efforts. Once, I had a group of ten outwardly healthy animals perish within fourteen days of accepting delivery. I sent samples to Elliot Jacobsen, UF, and to the Vet. school at the U of Tenn., only to find that these animals apparently suffered renal failure. In other words, I had no chance with them, they were dead when they arrived.

: :
: : Walt

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: I've never understood why the host countries don't do more to get involved with the captive reproduction of the species they are exporting. : : : Hi Walt, : : Your quite right, E. Mandarina was a very poor example to ponder such questions, the amount of E. mandarina and other Asian Ratsnakes, that are being collected and dying is quite appaling no matter what a person's opinion is on commercial collecting. : : I often find myself in quite a quandry with my commercial collecting views, as I have to acknowledge that some species would not be available if not for some collecting/importing, therebye allowing us (herpetoculturists) to begin captive breeding programs and hopefully, decreasing demand for wild caught specimens. I'm always in a personal battle with my own conscience to not be hypocritical, sometimes it's hard : : John : : : : : : : I pretty much agree with what you are saying, I myself don't keep wild caught snakes of any kind, plenty captive bred available, don't want to contaminate my collection, etc. but, being the devil's advocate today, if you didn't receive wild caught and thru much valiante effort and hardship no doubt, nobody would have captive bred, same with Gillingham here in the states who I believe produced them around '88, so who decides who get's the wild caught ones?, who gets to attempt to produce them?, who decides when there are enough being produced (they are fairly still hard to get ahold of even at $500) to stop importing WC? : : : : John : : : : P.S. Have you seen the guy who posted down below that he can't get an Asian ratsnake (don't remember species, without looking, maybe Mandarin)to eat, and then the very next post, is the same guy inquiring how to get some other hard to keep alive species? Makes your post very applicable and timely. LOL : : : : : : : : : I hear it over and over again. "I just bought a wild caught Elaphe mandarina. What should I do to keep it alive?" : : : : : Why.. why.. why.. : : : : : Yes wild captured animals are cheaper.... much cheaper, but there are cb on the market, and their numbers are increasing. : : : : : How many mandarins that are imported over the years into USA and Europe are counted in ten thousands, and how many survives their first year...... Almost NONE. They are always suffering from various parasites, stress and dehydration, and it takes years to get them established into captivity, if ever. : : : : : My story with my mandarins should scare most reptile keepers, AND IT HAD A SUCCESSFUL ENDING: : : : : : An adult pair was imported to Europe in 1981. They were placed in an outdoor terrarium for 2 years, and placed afterwards in a typical terrarium. The bottom was filled with long plastic tupes going from one corner (hot and dry) to the other (cold and moist). : : : : : I didn`t see the animals for several years outside these tupes. They ate only 2-3 newborn rats every year, but looked OK. In 1989 they started showing themself at times at night and began eating a little more. In 1990 they gained a little weight and began eating in the Autum too. Before that it was only just after hibernation. I always hibernated them for 4-5 months very cold, and finally in 1991 I got my first juveniles. WHO HAS THE TIME FOR THAT. Remember the first clutch of mandarins was in 1989 made by Gillingham and M�nzenmaier, so there were many trying and trying to brake the key without success. : : : : : Some years ago there were 2 very skilled Asian ratsnake breeders that went to China and brought back about 200 mandarins and moellendorffi. These animals were quickly moved from the wild and into captivity. The idea was that the survival rate should be much higher but even seperately kept, almost all died shortly after. : : : : : The year is now 2000 and there are frequently captive bred mandarins for sale, and still there are imported so many animals to a surtain death. : : : : : This is not only for mandarins, but for many other ratsnakes too especially the Asian ones. : : : : : Do we REALLY want these animals..... Pay the price (I know it is hard I just ordered porphyracea cb`s)or forget keeping them. Don`t experience if you arn`t a very skilled Vet and ratsnake keeper. : : : : : Best wishes : : : : : S�e : : : Hey JKeller, : : : I've read posts by you (and agreed with your thoughts) on the Field Collecting Forum where, like most of us, you've indicated that you were extremely opposed to commercial collecting. These mandarina are being commercially exploited with almost nothing to show for it. The incredible percentage loss far outweighs any possible benefit that we could possibly derive by continuing to import these animals. You are also being absolutely fair when you rightfully ask, why should some get the chance and not others. Who decides which individuals should get the chance? I think that the answer is, that as a group we need to learn from history so as not to continue the same failed efforts. We know that for the most part, the imported thing doesn't work. Applaud the success of those that have managed to acclimate imports and start successful breeding programs, and through discussions like this, educate the people who would choose the import route to the fact that they are chasing a mirage. Hopefully more will choose captives and eventually the flow and harvet of commercially collected mandarina into this country will cease. : : : For the record, I am one who has worked with imports will a small degree of success and numerous failures as well. I have become educated and hopefully can help to prevent others from making the same failed efforts. Once, I had a group of ten outwardly healthy animals perish within fourteen days of accepting delivery. I sent samples to Elliot Jacobsen, UF, and to the Vet. school at the U of Tenn., only to find that these animals apparently suffered renal failure. In other words, I had no chance with them, they were dead when they arrived. : : : : : : Walt

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