Elaphe bimaculata vs. E. dione...who's who??...more

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Posted by ratman on February 02, 2000 at 19:16:18:

In Reply to: About dione & mandarina posted by Mario on February 02, 2000 at 01:31:52:

Hello mario..i'll try to make this post as short as i can but this is a subject that goes on and on. Schulz wrote an excellent account of both in his monograph on the genus (1996)..but based on some specimens i have i can make a few additional points. The species dione has the largest range of any old world species of Elaphe. It ranges from the Ukraine to Korea and in that expanse are many different colors..patterns..sizes..etc. It is also one of the most northerly ranging of any Elaphe. Known as the Steppes rat..the most northern form is smaller and has duller colors..mostly dark browns. In my opinion the best forms (hopefully subspecies some day) are the most southerly. They are larger..more colorful..and have more distinct patterns. I'm working with the Ukrainian Dion's rat..Central Chinese Dion's rat..and the South Korean Dion's rat. They all have dione-like characteristics..but the Chinese specimens are the most different and closer to bimaculata in superficial appearance. Some specimens of Chinese and Korean dione are darker because they come from high in the mountains.

The bimaculata are more southerly than any dione and have a restricted range in the Yangtse River Basin. They are a subtropical snake. The biggest difference between the two species is in personality. Bimaculata is quite secretive and dione is not very shy. Dione makes a fabulous pet most of the time..especially when captive raised. Bimaculata is very interesting and colorful..but hides a lot and is a little nervous..depends on individuals too. They all are pretty easy to raise..dione being one of the easiest to care for and breed..even better than guttata. As far as physical differences i believe one of the main distinctions is that bimaculata has fewer dorsal scale rows (normally 23) as opposed to 25 for dione. There are also some DNA distinctions. They seem to be closely related and have many of the same characteristics, although bimaculata is not nearly as variable as dione. Dione seem to get slightly larger. My wild caught female South Korean dione is about 40 inches..a length rarely achieved by bimaculata. They are very similar in color and pattern with some minor differences..the S.Korean dione has a reddish-brown head. Bimaculata has a slightly longer snout..and also is almost always yellowish under the jaws..dione is usually orangish under the jaws..except the Chinese dione which sometimes has very little color there. The Chinese dione tend to have lots of yellow..more than other dione or bimacs..they also have a wider dorsal stripe..and are probably the largest of the dione. The Ukrainian are more northerly and darker..mine are battleship grey.

There have been many pictures of the Steppes rat which don't do the species justice..and in addition several published photos are misidentified..i can name at least three (not Schulz' or Sacha's). Usually the two species can only be told apart by a person who has worked with both species for a substantial time period. The best thing you could do would be to take a good photo and mail it to some serious Eurasian herpers..or better yet..post it on this forum. Then you'd get an immediate response and probably not start too much of an argument.

I wish you the best of luck with these guys mario..two of my favorite rats..wish i had the equipment to post some pics right now. By the way i've been working with bimacs since about '94 and dione for going on four years. I've bred the bimacs numerous times and will again this year (three bloodlines) and have gotten clutches from the Ukraines and the Chinese dione..still working on the Koreans. All of these dione originated with Lloyd Lemke..the Koreans he caught personally. He was one of the greatest collector/breeders in the U.S..this project is for him too. Anyway folks..consider yourselves lucky..i'm usually more long-winded than this. I gotta go now and get some ratburgers with ratboy. Later.

: Hi all,
: firstly, would you please explain me the (very subtle) difference between E. dione and E. bimaculata. I've got a specimen identified as E. bimaculata, but the photos on the Sacha Korell web site suggest me he is E. dione.
: Then, I'm finding who breed or sell E. mandarina in East Coast, and the price of a subadult specimen.
: Any suggestion welcome
: Thanx
: Mario

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: Hello mario..i'll try to make this post as short as i can but this is a subject that goes on and on. Schulz wrote an excellent account of both in his monograph on the genus (1996)..but based on some specimens i have i can make a few additional points. The species dione has the largest range of any old world species of Elaphe. It ranges from the Ukraine to Korea and in that expanse are many different colors..patterns..sizes..etc. It is also one of the most northerly ranging of any Elaphe. Known as the Steppes rat..the most northern form is smaller and has duller colors..mostly dark browns. In my opinion the best forms (hopefully subspecies some day) are the most southerly. They are larger..more colorful..and have more distinct patterns. I'm working with the Ukrainian Dion's rat..Central Chinese Dion's rat..and the South Korean Dion's rat. They all have dione-like characteristics..but the Chinese specimens are the most different and closer to bimaculata in superficial appearance. Some specimens of Chinese and Korean dione are darker because they come from high in the mountains. : The bimaculata are more southerly than any dione and have a restricted range in the Yangtse River Basin. They are a subtropical snake. The biggest difference between the two species is in personality. Bimaculata is quite secretive and dione is not very shy. Dione makes a fabulous pet most of the time..especially when captive raised. Bimaculata is very interesting and colorful..but hides a lot and is a little nervous..depends on individuals too. They all are pretty easy to raise..dione being one of the easiest to care for and breed..even better than guttata. As far as physical differences i believe one of the main distinctions is that bimaculata has fewer dorsal scale rows (normally 23) as opposed to 25 for dione. There are also some DNA distinctions. They seem to be closely related and have many of the same characteristics, although bimaculata is not nearly as variable as dione. Dione seem to get slightly larger. My wild caught female South Korean dione is about 40 inches..a length rarely achieved by bimaculata. They are very similar in color and pattern with some minor differences..the S.Korean dione has a reddish-brown head. Bimaculata has a slightly longer snout..and also is almost always yellowish under the jaws..dione is usually orangish under the jaws..except the Chinese dione which sometimes has very little color there. The Chinese dione tend to have lots of yellow..more than other dione or bimacs..they also have a wider dorsal stripe..and are probably the largest of the dione. The Ukrainian are more northerly and darker..mine are battleship grey. : There have been many pictures of the Steppes rat which don't do the species justice..and in addition several published photos are misidentified..i can name at least three (not Schulz' or Sacha's). Usually the two species can only be told apart by a person who has worked with both species for a substantial time period. The best thing you could do would be to take a good photo and mail it to some serious Eurasian herpers..or better yet..post it on this forum. Then you'd get an immediate response and probably not start too much of an argument. : I wish you the best of luck with these guys mario..two of my favorite rats..wish i had the equipment to post some pics right now. By the way i've been working with bimacs since about '94 and dione for going on four years. I've bred the bimacs numerous times and will again this year (three bloodlines) and have gotten clutches from the Ukraines and the Chinese dione..still working on the Koreans. All of these dione originated with Lloyd Lemke..the Koreans he caught personally. He was one of the greatest collector/breeders in the U.S..this project is for him too. Anyway folks..consider yourselves lucky..i'm usually more long-winded than this. I gotta go now and get some ratburgers with ratboy. Later. : : : Hi all, : : firstly, would you please explain me the (very subtle) difference between E. dione and E. bimaculata. I've got a specimen identified as E. bimaculata, but the photos on the Sacha Korell web site suggest me he is E. dione. : : Then, I'm finding who breed or sell E. mandarina in East Coast, and the price of a subadult specimen. : : Any suggestion welcome : : Thanx : : Mario

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