Re: I need some help deciding about N. American Rats...

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Posted by Patrick Alexander on July 19, 2002 at 11:40:37:

In Reply to: Re: I need some help deciding about N. American Rats... posted by Chris Brown on July 19, 2002 at 08:11:56:

:
: : Erm... Don't want to start a hybrid war here... but you're not going to be able to get corn snakes out of breeding hybrids to corn snakes... you're going to get more hybrids. I suppose after at least 20 to 30 generations or so, what you end up with might be, for all practical intents and purposes, a corn snake. But, if they're ever for all practical intents and purposes a corn snake, that'll mean they won't have any phenotypic characteristics associated with E. obsoleta--i.e., they won't be any larger than corn snakes are. If getting something that looks like a corn but is larger is all you're after, yeah, you should be able to get there in not too long--but they -won't- be corn snakes, and, whatever you do, don't sell them as such...
: : Although, given that we've already got people who are obviously selling hybrids as corn snakes on the classifieds here, maybe you'll just be part of the crowd...

: In a santitised, black and white view of species bondaries, you're correct - they'll never be "true" corn snakes, whatever that means.

Well, hey, I already said that they would be, for all practical intents and purposes, corn snakes after 20-30 generations or so. That's certainly not `entirely black and white'.

: However, species boundaries in the North American elaphe genus are already somewhat arbitrary, and the ease with which these snakes will interbreed suggests that regarding the North American elaphidae as different species to the extent we currently do, rather than regional variations of a single species, is probably a bit suspect anyway.

Interbreeding in captivity, in my opinion, doesn't mean much about whether or not these guys are different species. All it suggests is that whatever forces cause reproductive isolation in the wild don't operate well in captivity. And, other than the question of whether or not guttata and emoryi are a single species or two separate species, and the issue of Burbrink's recent `contribution' to Elaphe systematics, I really don't see much reason to think there's any arbitrariness or reason for suspicion in North American Elaphe systematics... and I don't think either of the uncertainties mentioned affects the current issue, as there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Elaphe obsoleta and Elaphe guttata are the same species.

: I must admit that I don't have a lot of time for those who fly off the handle whenevr hybrids are mentioned (I'm not accusing anyone specifically here), rabbiting on about "pure bloodlines" (for "pure" read "inbred").

`for "pure" read "inbred"'? Where're you going with this, exactly? Do you have any reason to think that the captive availability of North American Elaphe is so genetically limited that all breedings within a species necessarily involve inbreeding, or are you just casting aspersions on those you disagree with whether they've got any basis in reality or not?

: It's particularly ludicrous when we consider that what we are dealing with here are not pedigree dogs, or thoroughbred racehorses, which have been domesticated for thousands of years and had their genetic devlopment controled by humans - we're talking about snakes whose ancestors of only a few generations ago were crawling around North America trying to jump the bones of anything vaugely elongate.

I'd -certainly- love to see any evidence supporting that particular claim. Do you happen to have any?

: We could all have a good old mixture of balck rat, grey rat, yellow rat, bairds, etc. blood in our "pure" cornsnakes, and we'd never be any the wiser. You see, some of us might have terrible hangups about whether two snakes having sex both have the same, somewhat arbitrary scientifc label placed on them. Unfortunately nobody seems to have explained this to the snakes who, quite unreasonably, seem to be most uncooperative with the schemes of some snake breeders to preserve their current genotype in formaldehyde for all time.

`Uncooperative'? What, you have snakes breaking out of their cages, breaking into the cages of other species, and breeding with them? And, yes, your formaldehyde quip is silly, baseless, and without bearing on the matter.

: As for what I'd sell them as - it would be corn snakes with a fair bit of grey rat blood in them.

Were I you, I'd be more careful, and not sell them as a type of corn snake at all. But, hey, that's me, I have hangups about being as clear as possible in representing animals...

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: : : : : Erm... Don't want to start a hybrid war here... but you're not going to be able to get corn snakes out of breeding hybrids to corn snakes... you're going to get more hybrids. I suppose after at least 20 to 30 generations or so, what you end up with might be, for all practical intents and purposes, a corn snake. But, if they're ever for all practical intents and purposes a corn snake, that'll mean they won't have any phenotypic characteristics associated with E. obsoleta--i.e., they won't be any larger than corn snakes are. If getting something that looks like a corn but is larger is all you're after, yeah, you should be able to get there in not too long--but they -won't- be corn snakes, and, whatever you do, don't sell them as such... : : : Although, given that we've already got people who are obviously selling hybrids as corn snakes on the classifieds here, maybe you'll just be part of the crowd... : : In a santitised, black and white view of species bondaries, you're correct - they'll never be "true" corn snakes, whatever that means. : Well, hey, I already said that they would be, for all practical intents and purposes, corn snakes after 20-30 generations or so. That's certainly not `entirely black and white'. : : However, species boundaries in the North American elaphe genus are already somewhat arbitrary, and the ease with which these snakes will interbreed suggests that regarding the North American elaphidae as different species to the extent we currently do, rather than regional variations of a single species, is probably a bit suspect anyway. : Interbreeding in captivity, in my opinion, doesn't mean much about whether or not these guys are different species. All it suggests is that whatever forces cause reproductive isolation in the wild don't operate well in captivity. And, other than the question of whether or not guttata and emoryi are a single species or two separate species, and the issue of Burbrink's recent `contribution' to Elaphe systematics, I really don't see much reason to think there's any arbitrariness or reason for suspicion in North American Elaphe systematics... and I don't think either of the uncertainties mentioned affects the current issue, as there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Elaphe obsoleta and Elaphe guttata are the same species. : : I must admit that I don't have a lot of time for those who fly off the handle whenevr hybrids are mentioned (I'm not accusing anyone specifically here), rabbiting on about "pure bloodlines" (for "pure" read "inbred"). : : `for "pure" read "inbred"'? Where're you going with this, exactly? Do you have any reason to think that the captive availability of North American Elaphe is so genetically limited that all breedings within a species necessarily involve inbreeding, or are you just casting aspersions on those you disagree with whether they've got any basis in reality or not? : : It's particularly ludicrous when we consider that what we are dealing with here are not pedigree dogs, or thoroughbred racehorses, which have been domesticated for thousands of years and had their genetic devlopment controled by humans - we're talking about snakes whose ancestors of only a few generations ago were crawling around North America trying to jump the bones of anything vaugely elongate. : I'd -certainly- love to see any evidence supporting that particular claim. Do you happen to have any? : : We could all have a good old mixture of balck rat, grey rat, yellow rat, bairds, etc. blood in our "pure" cornsnakes, and we'd never be any the wiser. You see, some of us might have terrible hangups about whether two snakes having sex both have the same, somewhat arbitrary scientifc label placed on them. Unfortunately nobody seems to have explained this to the snakes who, quite unreasonably, seem to be most uncooperative with the schemes of some snake breeders to preserve their current genotype in formaldehyde for all time. : `Uncooperative'? What, you have snakes breaking out of their cages, breaking into the cages of other species, and breeding with them? And, yes, your formaldehyde quip is silly, baseless, and without bearing on the matter. : : As for what I'd sell them as - it would be corn snakes with a fair bit of grey rat blood in them. : Were I you, I'd be more careful, and not sell them as a type of corn snake at all. But, hey, that's me, I have hangups about being as clear as possible in representing animals...

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