maybe in captivity

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Posted by Karel Bergmann on August 12, 1999 at 12:42:23:

In Reply to: Re: Can you cross an african rock python with a burmese python? posted by BT on August 12, 1999 at 12:05:45:

I am not nessesarily talking only about captive populations, how many are left in the wild? only recently has the export of P molurus and P reticulatus been curbed to lesser level, skins are exported by the kilometer. Let me explain what kind of problems this type of practice can cause: lets use the whole P. molurus complex as an example, it won't be hybridization in this case, but intergradation of sympatric taxa (aka non-naturally occuring intergrades) Lets use an imaginary goof called Joe, Joe decides that it might be really "cool" to make himself a clutch or two of muts, lets say he took an indian python (P. m. molurus) and crossed os with a ceylonese (P. m. pimbura) and then thought it would be cool to cross one of those with a burm (p. m. bivitatus) so now we have a 1/2 bivitatus 1/4 pimbura 1/4 molurus. Joe decides that since he can't get a decent price for these things (as seen in carpet intergrade, diamond python $1000, jungle carpet $200, intergrade $150), he will sell them as ceylonese pythons (and there are unscrupulous breeders out there, don't try saying that all herpers are honest people, although the majority are). Now the ceylonese python has a VERY restricted range, so it is quite conceivable that they will become severly threatened in the next couple years, possibly CITES appendix I. So now an organization or scientist decides that it is prudent to set up a captive breeding facility for these snakes and goes looking for captive specimens to seed the project. He finds Joe and buys some animals from him and begins to produce his ceylonese pythons for eventual reintroduction, but little does he know that he is not producing cylonese pythons, nobody actually knows what he is producing. Now these snakes possibly can't survive in the wild as they lack a lot of pimbura genetic information that was essential to them filling their niche in the wild, or worse yet, they do survive in the wild, and boom you have one big catastrophe, the true ceylonese python is now extinct in the wild.

Does this help to illustrate the point?

Another argument against hybridization that works for me, lets anthropomorphize the situation a bit. I personnally wouldn't want make my snakes do somethign that I wouldn't do. Mating with a female of my species, sure I will do that happily. Breeding with a female of the same genus, different species (ie. P. molurus X P. reticulatus) so me reproducing with say a chimpanzee, I don't think I would do that, would you? now maybe a different genus (ie. Morelia spilotes X Liasis macklotti) so analogous to a person breeding with an orangutan. Kind of disgusting, no? Societally unacceptable? I think this example helps add some perspective.

Now I am not saying you are a bad person for producing these animals or anything, what I am trying to communicate is that if you do decide to do this, you better be responsible about it, or else there is no telling what damage it can cause to both captive and wild gene pools. If you check Bob Clark's site you will see that all hybrids are marked with mircochip implants to identify them as such etc. I would like to think that all reptile owners have this type of integrity, but I am afraid that not all herpers are as honest, I have had the mispleasure of dealing with many.

If one looks at aviculture, hybrid is a swear word, and not accepted in the hobby, aviculture has good reason to take such an extreme stance on the subject, as a result of unscrupulous breeders many species of bird are now EXTINCT, the Red Siskin is one example.

I am trying to say that to me, my personnal code of ethics and moral forbid me to participate in such a practice, but this is somethig you just have to do, then please, I cannot implore this enough, PLEASE be careful and do it responsibly, show th eintegrity that Bob Clark shows when it comes to this issue, I would hate the world to lose a species because of one person doing things they personally should not be doing and misrepresenting the offspring.

Morelia-Net

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: I am not nessesarily talking only about captive populations, how many are left in the wild? only recently has the export of P molurus and P reticulatus been curbed to lesser level, skins are exported by the kilometer. Let me explain what kind of problems this type of practice can cause: lets use the whole P. molurus complex as an example, it won't be hybridization in this case, but intergradation of sympatric taxa (aka non-naturally occuring intergrades) Lets use an imaginary goof called Joe, Joe decides that it might be really "cool" to make himself a clutch or two of muts, lets say he took an indian python (P. m. molurus) and crossed os with a ceylonese (P. m. pimbura) and then thought it would be cool to cross one of those with a burm (p. m. bivitatus) so now we have a 1/2 bivitatus 1/4 pimbura 1/4 molurus. Joe decides that since he can't get a decent price for these things (as seen in carpet intergrade, diamond python $1000, jungle carpet $200, intergrade $150), he will sell them as ceylonese pythons (and there are unscrupulous breeders out there, don't try saying that all herpers are honest people, although the majority are). Now the ceylonese python has a VERY restricted range, so it is quite conceivable that they will become severly threatened in the next couple years, possibly CITES appendix I. So now an organization or scientist decides that it is prudent to set up a captive breeding facility for these snakes and goes looking for captive specimens to seed the project. He finds Joe and buys some animals from him and begins to produce his ceylonese pythons for eventual reintroduction, but little does he know that he is not producing cylonese pythons, nobody actually knows what he is producing. Now these snakes possibly can't survive in the wild as they lack a lot of pimbura genetic information that was essential to them filling their niche in the wild, or worse yet, they do survive in the wild, and boom you have one big catastrophe, the true ceylonese python is now extinct in the wild. : Does this help to illustrate the point? : Another argument against hybridization that works for me, lets anthropomorphize the situation a bit. I personnally wouldn't want make my snakes do somethign that I wouldn't do. Mating with a female of my species, sure I will do that happily. Breeding with a female of the same genus, different species (ie. P. molurus X P. reticulatus) so me reproducing with say a chimpanzee, I don't think I would do that, would you? now maybe a different genus (ie. Morelia spilotes X Liasis macklotti) so analogous to a person breeding with an orangutan. Kind of disgusting, no? Societally unacceptable? I think this example helps add some perspective. : Now I am not saying you are a bad person for producing these animals or anything, what I am trying to communicate is that if you do decide to do this, you better be responsible about it, or else there is no telling what damage it can cause to both captive and wild gene pools. If you check Bob Clark's site you will see that all hybrids are marked with mircochip implants to identify them as such etc. I would like to think that all reptile owners have this type of integrity, but I am afraid that not all herpers are as honest, I have had the mispleasure of dealing with many. : If one looks at aviculture, hybrid is a swear word, and not accepted in the hobby, aviculture has good reason to take such an extreme stance on the subject, as a result of unscrupulous breeders many species of bird are now EXTINCT, the Red Siskin is one example. : I am trying to say that to me, my personnal code of ethics and moral forbid me to participate in such a practice, but this is somethig you just have to do, then please, I cannot implore this enough, PLEASE be careful and do it responsibly, show th eintegrity that Bob Clark shows when it comes to this issue, I would hate the world to lose a species because of one person doing things they personally should not be doing and misrepresenting the offspring.

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