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Posted by Ric Blair on November 10, 1998 at 01:56:29:
In Reply to: Re: Very Serious Flaws With Proposed Guidelines posted by Dave Beamer on November 09, 1998 at 23:47:29:
: The fact that many species are broad ranging doesn't change the fact that it is still the same animal with the same evolutionary fate. In herpetocultural circles there tends to be an emphasis on color variations. While clinal variation is fascinating it has nothing to do with coherent taxonomic units. The vast majority of subspecies are arbitrarily defined slices of this clinal variation. There is just as much reason to recognize box turtles from parts of Michigan as T. c. michiganensis because they have high yellow as there is to recognize any othere arbitrarily defined slice. In continental species variation is sometimes so great that indeed individuals from one coast can be distinguished from those from the other coast by color pattern. In IN those animals are treated as color morphs just like an albino ect. In you triangulum example I suggest that at least nine species will be recognized from this complex and the snakes from Central America ect. will not be recognized as conspecific. Until then DNR has to wait until they have some data to base there regulations on.
: I would be interested to hear what facets of teh animals biology has rivalled or surpassed academics. This is a fairly common claim but I have yet to see it substantiated. I do agree that there is a tremendous potential for hobbyiest to help in ensuring the survival of herp populations. In IN at least I would say that not only are such people allowed they are encouraged by both herpetologist and the DNR.
: I did not imply that hobbyiest should generate the population data but rather that they should base their proposal on data that has already been collected. While data on herpetoculture effects on populations is sparse it does exist. More importantly there is a wealth of metapopulation data that addresses the removal of individuals from the population. There are countless papers dealing with recruitment and mortality ect. It is important to realize that when an animal is removed from the population by a hobbyiest or dealer the effect is the same as if the animal was removed by being eaten by a predator or dying due to disease or getting run over by a semi. If you need help in locating this kind of data let me know and I will help you locate it.
: Dave Beamer
So what does all this have to do with raising biologically dead anumals, and selling the biologically dead babies. You see, we want to get just a few animals from the wild. The rest can be done through breeding. All the rest of this bullshit is a sideshow Dave Beamer. If you want to get something out of this, start asking for questions relating to your studies on another forum. We do not want to wipr out populations. Not like the DNR has done in mass, or habitat destruction. You had better get out in the field and catch some smugglers and quit babbling on. I know what is happening in the wild populations. I see it when I am out in the field. I even know what horned toads are disapearing, what frogs, and so on. And it was not because ot the herpers. It is happening for other reasons. And please don't bring up the turtle and denning crap anymore. If this were of great concern the biologists, would have some great input to stop the rattlesnake roundups. I guess it is not in there agenda to mess with big money influence and The DNR's that sanction these devastations. How many emails and letters have you written to Texas and Oklahoma about the roundups. I guess it would not be in your best interest to step on those toes, eh.
