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Re: Very Bad News...definitely succs...

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Posted by regalringneck on March 28, 2003 at 05:27:46:

In Reply to: Very Bad News...Long Post :-((( posted by Dryguy on March 27, 2003 at 17:44:54:

Carl, I feel your pain. I'll never forget losing my first w/c gravid desert boa back in 78 when desert rockboas were really (really!) rare... in fact I showed it to Bob Applegate he'd never seen one before. Anyway she & all the neonates died during parturition. I was fit to be tied. I had her in a nice display where her hiding options were quite limited, her last month of gestation had her moving nearly constantly....
I suspect 2-3 major variables in this reproduction conundrum;

Foremost; the mental health of the sow. I am amazed how many jpgs I see of snakes laying eggs in the corner & in the open. While I have had this happen also, it invites problems w/ retention. I find that heavy cover (the whole cage filled w/ layers of aspen & substrate)is a much better situation. Then you must leave her alone & quit peeking & disturbing her. In nature snakes are very secretive when gravid.
If retention occurs, & I've only experienced this a handful of times, I leave the sow alone to deal w/ it. Ive used oxytosin once the young boas were fully developed but still born.
Heres one case in support of leave them alone...
I have a big c/b cal king ~ 5', that 3 years ago held on to her eggs for over a month before releasing them, they of course died, but she has since laid 2 large healthy clutches w/ 100% hatching.

Secondly; the sow must have good muscle tone & be of intermediate weight, again w/ boas (& humans!) the obese tend to have the most problems. This means excercise, varied diet, & a feast-famine cycle as occurs in nature.

Thirdly; T's have to be right; the gradient & cycling the highs & lows probably is a big factor, we assume T requirements are similar to the adults preferred T, but who knows??? Im finding a bit lower may be alot slower, but less problemas....

I hope you take the time to fully document your chronology of events & known data so we can all try to learn from your tragic trainwreck.

Good thing you're working w/ a large herd, & mebbe we need to move your rubidus south where they belong!

:Well, my egg-bound 1st clutch girl died last night...Still had not passed the last 3 eggs...Short Chronicle..
:...egg-bound after first 4 eggs
:...I manually expressed 3 more over next 24 -48 hrs used calcuim, manual lubrication, warm soaks, increased temps,etc..without success
:....took her to the only vet in my state (CO)who is competent and frequently cares for herps(his main practice)

:My goal was to be conservative, avoid surgery and save her fertility..
:He agreed, consulted with Mader, and many others..All counselled continue conservative treatment..Seen by the Vet School in Boulder and their Herp specialists, all in agreement...Proceed to additional Calcium, Oxytocin (followed by Arginine Vasopressin which has been studied in reptiles and he ordered from overseas for her)added Prostiglandins and she continued to seem vigorous...

:Performed ovo-centesis which collapsed the blocking egg...

:Continued therapy as above with drugs, Calcium, supplemental nutrion....

:She did move all 3 eggs down to the cloaca, but would never pass them...Died last night...

:He is going to do the scientific thing and present her case at a reptile vet conference this weekend and "write it up"

:I received many suggestions when this started...The one that I wish I had done and didn't(I think we did everything else) was to PUSH TO GET THEM OUT NOW!!!! I must take some fault,as I continually expressed my desire to avoid surgery due scarring and infertilty to Dr itzgerald..He was following my desires and freely admitted that the science is not good concerning the reproductive strategies for these animals when dystocia presents itself...(during the time he had her, he was delivering, successfully, a 250 lb egg-bound crocodile and several sulcata's and other herps...It's not like he didn't know what he was doing....

:I should have followed my instincts (and Phil's or JG's, I forgot who said get them out fast!! first)

:So,guys with first clutch girls...Be prepared in advance, find your vet or a vet, and my advice is tell him to get the eggs out now!!!! I think my putting it off 4 days(he was out of town until the 5th day)didn't help, but I pushed him to be conservative...And he thought he was doing the right thing too, backed by other experts in the field...

:Needle ovocentesis, preceeded by loading dose of antiobitic...Baytril, gentimicin, etc to try to prevent egg-yolk peritonitis and then suck the damn egg contents out and don't wait is my sad advice....

:I wish the rest of you luck and success..I still have another girl to go, but this young gal was so pretty..Elliot and Skow bloodlines,etc. etc....
:I'm in Texas right now, but will be returning to Colorado tomorrow...Very Sad Dryguy

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