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Posted by dryguy on August 16, 2002 at 17:06:13:
In Reply to: Sorry DT, Big J, drphibes..I respectfully disagree.. posted by dryguy on August 16, 2002 at 16:20:57:
saying...You all make good points, but here's my take on it (and I want a Clelia as much as anyone!) Mussy's have constriction and venom going for them right? What's their jaw strength?? How efficient is their venom delivery system??..How serious is their venom??.. We know they're rear fanged..i.e. Not very!! Dry's snack on Crotalus and any viper/pit-viper with impunity and eat coral snakes too!!...My warped logic would say discount the venom period...
Next, constriction...Constrictors, by definition, subdue their prey by constriction, not their jaws..The jaw just serves to snag something to constrict..We've all seen our kings, pines, etc..lose a grip with their jaws and just keep constricting on until the prey has exhausted itself aerobically and, due to lack of venous return to the heart, and therefore, oxygenated bloodflow, dies...(when's the last time you saw a Dry let go of anything it wanted to eat!!)...This happens quickly with rodents, but we've all seen pics, or in person, the meal(snake) wiggling it's tail on the way down a kings gullet..Snake not dead until digested most of the time..If it was released/regurgitated it would crawl away...
Why would an animal with both constriction and "venom" in it's favor need jaw strength?? Doesn't seem to make "Darwinian" sense too me...(Unless it has a massive inferiority complex!)
Contrast the Guardian...Massive girth...Speed...INCREDIBLE jaw strenth..They CRUSH the heads of their victims (and other snake's skulls are inherently weak)...Anaerobic resilence to constriction's effect...Immunity to venom period...Do I need to go on??:-)
Still, with all that said, it's the opposite of boxing's "golden rule" i.e. kill the body and the head dies...Here, it's "get the head and go to bed"!!
(Gee, sometimes I crack myself up!)
So DT, et al, breed those baby's!! You're on top of the pyramid now Dawg!!! "Dryguy"
Please, everyone realize this post was just to keep things lively, not to impune anyone else's opinion (except Doug's):-)
::Ok, Maybe JG and I made a little much of it and, so things were maybe a little overstated. No need to hide the women and children. Not much need for a cribo to fear...as long as he's a biggie like Dryguys Mongo, Chainsaw or whichever impressive giant Drymarchon in that group.
::In the wild, Mussuranas probably fall prey to cribos often, just like cribos probably fall prey to Mussuranas often. Just depends on who's the bigger, stronger one at the moment. "A Kingsnake on Crack" is another favorite description.
::Mussurana (Clelia clelia) is primarily a snake eater. It is usually considered beneficial to locals as they are known to be immune to Bothrops, or Fer-De-Lance venom and they consider a Fer-De-Lance to be a tasty treat.
::The Mussurana is an extremely powerful constrictor. Several previous keepers describe the constriction as "steel bands". It is rear fanged and delivers venom to its prey. Anything considered a meal to a Mussurana is probably doomed by one of these methods.
::They are also very mellow with people. Like many cribos can be, wild specimens are often very reluctant to bite. Which for us humans is a good thing. Unfortunately for rodents, they will eat them too.
::I was extremely fortunate in that Bobby Lee noticed that Glades Herp had some coming in. He let me know so I could get a jump on them. The price was much lower than I had expected so I ordered a pair immediately. Now I am the proud owner of a pair of Mussuranas. They are not as "intellegent" as indigos. They don't pay attention when I'm in the room. As far as I know, they don't get quite as big. They are jet black with bright red bellies that should fade to jet black with age. They should get near 8 feet long as adults with similar care and feeding requirements. One clear difference is how prey is acquired. Drymarchon use jaws, Clelia use constriction and some venom.
::Mine are now just under 2 feet long and, amazingly, both have eaten live pinky mice which to me means they are well on the way. I'll get some good pictures for you all when I get some better pictures (besides the ones of the DOA's).
::Some tidbits and extrapolations. Eastern Indigos and Mussuranas have about the same size clutches, but my Eastern Indigo Hatchlings are more "girthy". My guess is that Eastern Indigos ultimately get bigger...at least the males, probably. Mussuranas are extremely tolerant of human contact. I've read several websites describing them as harmless to humans. I wouldn't be willing to say harmless, but I'd say that most people capable of keeping indigos probably could keep a mussurana safely. The reports of bites have mentioned some swelling at the bite site, but no tissue damage that was long term. In other words, Dannio's "Anti-Christ" Yellow Tail will cause you more damage than my mussuranas, which I have held many times since I got them and they have never once acted aggresively.
::I feel extremely fortunate to have gotten these snakes. I know only a couple people who have ever had them and the only current breeder I know of lives in Uraguay. There is an anonymous breeder in Argentina who bred mine...who is he?
::I'm trying to downplay how giddy I am about these snakes. I feel like I just won the lottery...Ok, maybe not the lottery, but one of the second or third place lottery winnings :-)
::Doug is happy.
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