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Posted by Doug T on April 04, 2002 at 23:21:47:
In Reply to: Tortoise burrow temps (attention Dean A.) posted by Dr. Phil on April 03, 2002 at 20:30:55:
I think this is the most fascinating thread in a LONG time. What is so amazing is we have a few folks here who know they are doing "something" right as regular successful mating is happening on something of a regular basis. However, MANY of the clues that we use or create are contradictory to those used by others. Some of the habitats that we are modeling might not always be available to indigos.
First Off, I'm not saying I am right. I believe I've stumbled onto something that fits comfortably within a normal range for indigos. Dean, Fred and Dwight know I respect their opinions and I consider them expert in indigo husbandry. Dr Phil and I have never had the pleasure of chatting, but he sure seems to know his stuff. I know that these guys have had success (so they are every bit as "right" as me) but they use climactic clues and habitat set ups that I don't even consider or even find necessary.
For example, Fred and Phil use temperatures year round that for several months, I almost completely miss. Fred doesn't drop his critters below 70, pretty much ever. On the other hand, I don't go above 70 during breeding season and on days I plan to breed them, I try to keep it closer to a max of 65. Sub-70 at night in the snake cages during fall, winter and spring is so common for me I think nothing of it. In fact I get nervous if it gets above 72 at night. I don't put them together for breeding unless the cage is at 55-58 ranges.
Dr Phil suspects that the low temperatures that Dean uses contributed to the RI suffered by 1 snake. I think we may have to think longer about this. I use cooler temps than Dino all year and I’ve never had an Indigo with an RI. Nor were there any RI’s suffered by indigos kept at my house for breeding purposes, hatchlings withheld for permits, or yearlings kept at friends houses under the same conditions (7 individuals this year alone). It may be that those who use WARMER temps and haven’t had indigos experience RI’s are the lucky ones.
Another example: Fred uses Barometric pressure as a clue. Fred lives in San Diego, I live in Seattle. When my snakes are breeding, it's between rainy seasons. It's clear, sunny and cold with high barometric pressures. Breeding season at MY house is almost as dry as summer.
Most guys put their indigos together WAY earlier than I do. Dean has his snakes together 2 1/2 months before I do. He gets eggs before I do, but less than 2-1/2 months before. The period I use for breeding is almost entirely within the last 2 weeks of December. This year I did break from the norm as I used the last 3 weeks.
Most every breeder puts their males and females together for multiple matings. I don't believe I've had a pair mate more than 1 time in a year, even though I've put them together multiple times. Still every clutch has been fertile (my oldest female's first clutch was a failure due to calcium deficiency from being bred to early and incubating at too high of temperatures. There were embryos in some of the eggs).
Another thing that's getting lots of talk are gopher tortoise burrows. The question I have is, do indigo snakes use gopher tortoise burrows EXCLUSIVELY, throughout their range as a winter hide, and thus are entirely dependant on the existence of gopher tortoise for their survival? My guess, and it is only a "guess", is that they aren't, and that things like hollowed trees, or fallen trees, that won't have the temperature buffering ability of 2 meters of soil, making them much cooler, are also commonly used. The existence of any surviving populations outside of gopher tortoise population ranges would verify that.
The natural photoperiod here is the same as Dr Phil’s. My lighting, which is the heat source, is down to 9 hours from Nov 1 to March 1. For me, the shortened days, temperatures already below those used by Fred and Phil, and LOW barometric pressures of November are still not enough to get breeding from my indigos. I still have to lower the temps… a lot.
My conclusion is that the range in which indigos can thrive is pretty big. I’m not convinced I’ve found something that works better than what anybody else is doing. I am convinced that it works well. My process produces eggs regularly, and usually later than everyone else.
So Phil, Fred, Dean, Dwight, Carl, Jerry, Robert, and anyone else out there having success, whatever you’re doing, KEEP IT UP.
Doug Taylor
