Re: Mussarana....careful lads...these can become an obsession

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: : Can anyone tell me:Are these in any way related to the indigo family? Does anyone keep or breed them?If so,are they available?Does anyone have a pic of one to post?What size do they reach?Any info.on them would be greatly appreciated.Thanks. : Mike, since you've obviously done little work (not even a google search for your jpg!), my temptation is to say nada, but sinse others are starting to exhibit the classic symptoms....I offer up out of my clelia folder a few nuggets. : I suggest you avoid all photos & force yourself to think of other legless biota! : Thnx for your referral, I have had an extensive email exchange w/ Mr. Fabius but cannot get him interested in examining how to legally export them. Damn pity! : Take care & thanks again. : John Gunn : In a message dated 2/27/01 6:38:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time, kassiba@hotmail.com writes: : << Subj: : Date: 2/27/01 6:38:51 AM US Mountain Standard Time : From: kassiba@hotmail.com (Francois Le Berre) : To: AZDiadophis@aol.com : : Contact a friend, David Fabius at DFabius@hotmail.com he has some CB on offer : : F. Le Berre : Good Morning David, thnx for your response. I've put my comments in [ ] to differentiate them from your text. : : Subj: Re: j. gunn: cool website David : Date: 12/22/00 5:15:45 AM US Mountain Standard Time : From: dafabius@hotmail.com (David Fabius) : To: AZDiadophis@aol.com : : Hi John, thank you for the info you mailed. [De nada] : I was particularly interested by Dr. Laurie Vitt, wherever he is from, as he collected "dozens" of occipitolutea and clelia. : Here in Uruguay we are talking about a rare species, and I've needed friends and trades over many years to put together a group. : Chances of finding one by myself are minimal, closest I came was a tail and part of backbone on the highway. : [I am surprised to hear Clelia is that uncommon, though it is sometimes similar here, that some widespread colubrids are quite common in some regions, but not others, even though the biome is somewhat similar. From the little I've gleaned, Clelia appear to prefer a more mesic habitat, I think Brazil is somewhat more mesic than Uruguay?? Do you have any contacts in Brazil who might provide you with wild caught specimens? Laurie Vitt is one of our (USA) more well known herp gurus. He was a graduate student @ Ariz. State Univ. when I was an undergraduate (1974-79), he did a stint in Brazil, then @ UCLA, & is now at the U. of Oklahoma, a prestigious herp. univ.] : And yes, it is legal to ship captive bred Clelia. [Great!] : As far as I know, nobody else anywhere breeds them.If you know about : somebody, would like to know. [you're the only one I've found to date] : As to wether I will ship, pls read on. I can tell you they are immune to Bothrops neuwiedi bites, I didn't try it, but a zoo did for a film. : I don´t know the origin of the name, I think its greek but don't know its meaning. [OK, I'll keep checking, interestingly, no other organism appears to have this name? Do you know the meaning of Mussarana?] : I have a bunch of notes and yes, I hope to publish, this seems like a climax of all my work. I really don't know what I have in my hands yet. : [I understand that firsthand w/ my work with rosy boas and chuckwallas] : The white female which my wife holds in the pic always produced piebald : offspring. Most died due to malformations, so my stock is limited. : I have since fixed this problem, even 28°C (83F?) is too high, at 26°C all babies have been perfect. [very interesting especially for a tropical snake???] : Now her son sired current babies with a normal (black )female, but I don't know what is the genetic makeup of the babies, I guess heteros for piebald. Then I also have the hatched piebalds. : So on the one hand, I may sell, possibly at a high price, a couple piebalds if the few remaining eggs from another clutch turn up a couple more piebalds. But I don't know what the price should be for black ones. [I would suggest $100 ea. for quantities of 1, $75 ea. for quantities of 2 or more would be a fair price + the shipping]. : [The normal black ones are my preference {tho an all white one like your wife is holding is a stunningly attractive critter too}. I'm not wealthy so I hope you can price them so that I can afford to buy them! Perhaps I can sweeten the deal by directing additional customers your way or functioning as a USA contact point for you???] : If I had 100% normal black ones, it would be easy. So that's the reason I haven't yet decided what I'll do with the babies. [OK] : To tell you frankly, I love the species and both morphs are pretty, but I need the money and must think of that, too. [I understand & trust we can both be comfortable with any final agreement.] : I can also tell you you can import by yourself, of course three snakes would probably cost a lot due to fixed costs. [I'd appreciate more detail on this aspect, I was hoping some of these fixed costs could be reduced by them being part of a larger shipment to one of your existing USA importers.] : As to the comments on danger of clelia bites, I've never been bitten, but over-eager young must be taught not to bite everything entering the box. And Uruguayan Philodryas are not dangerous so the comparison somebody makes is not meaningful to me. [Again interesting, I read {cannot remember the source} an interesting account of a 2 m+ Clelia being caught at night & how the individual incredibly did not get bit...they're apparently docile beyond belief] : Finally, my clelias when hatchling as you have seen are not as described for Clelia clelia. Also, shape of head is different from animals from S. Paulo, which have a smaller head and no neck (like a Clelia rustica) [My understanding is that C. occipitolutea and C:C are : basically the same beast, is this true? Which Clelia species and subspecies are your?] : And well, to me its you who lives very far, but I drove by Phoenix ten years ago, the area is beautiful, I stayed in Tucson then.Lots of open space, I liked it a lot. [Yes indeed, pity I didnt know of you then we could have had a nice chat over a beer or coffee. Do you have any plans to return in the near future?] : A merry Xmas to you, and let's keep in touch, : Best wishes , David : [Thank you, John Gunn] : : >From: AZDiadophis@aol.com : >To: dafabius@hotmail.com : >Subject: j. gunn: cool website David : >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:37:30 EST : > : >Hi David, me again. : > : >Nice settup you've got going there. Clearly you're an old pro @ exporting, : >hopefully you have an existing connection here in the USA that can receive : >Clelia & forward them to me. Santa might come thru yet! : > : >cheers, jg : Subj: Re: looking for Clelia : Date: 12/20/00 5:59:57 AM US Mountain Standard Time : From: dafabius@hotmail.com (David Fabius) : To: AZDiadophis@aol.com : Hi John, thank you for your inquiry. : To tell you frankly, I don't remember when I posted about Clelia, or what : info I gave. I am located in Uruguay, so this is the beggining of summer. Some Clelia have just hatched, and this is a very special season for me, after working for 15 years with the species, I got second generation Clelia and some are piebald. : I still don't know how many I will keep as this also depends on other eggs cooking which are about 4-5 wks away from hatching date. : : I don't know if you have info or previous experience with the genus or this species, pls feel free to let me know if you have any questions, as far as I know nobody else is working with the species here in S.America and this has been a lifetime of work for me. : Uruguayan Clelia are late summer to winter breeders, and I noticed several similarities with breeding behavior of indigo snakes (according to an article a few years ago ) like slugs previous to the main clutch. : C.b. ones, however, have mated in spring. : If you want to have a look at them, you can go to my site: : www.members.tripod.com/DFabius, I have several pics you might enjoy. : Best regards, : David Fabius : : >From: AZDiadophis@aol.com : >To: dafabius@hotmail.com : >Subject: looking for Clelia : >Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:14:13 EST : > : >Hi saw your post, any chance you still have clelia? : > : >I'd love to locate a pair. : > : >thnx john gunn : : Hello David, thnx for your response. : Wow you are far away from here (Phx. Az, USA)! What an experience...Uruguay. I am a wildlife biologist so naturally I yearn to someday see S. America. : Anyway, back to Clelia....Is it legal (& would you be willing) to send Clelia out of your country? I am not sure what it would require on this end to import them, but I'd find out if you're willing to part with a pair or perhaps a trio. I expect I would have to use an already permitted importer. : At this point I would just like to maintain a captive colony and examine their ntrl. history, & captive behavior, particularly their infamous ophiphagous behavior towards crotalids! Are you planning to publish your experiences with your colony? I've appended the meager bit of information I've gleaned thus far on the www, I havent explored the literature to much extent yet. : Do you know the origin of the name Clelia? : I look forward to a continuing dialogue with you on these fantastic creatures. : Take care and Merry Christmas, : : John Gunn : ____________________________________________________________________ : http://www.thesnake.org/cols.html : Species: : Clelia clelia : Synonyms: : Coluber clelia DAUDIN 1803: 330 : Clelia Daudinii FITZINGER 1826 (nom. subst. for Coluber clelia DAUDIN) : Brachyruton occipito-luteum DUMÉRIL, BIBRON & DUMÉRIL 1854 : Brachyruton cloelia [sic] JAN 1870 (part.) : Oxyrhopus cloelia [sic] - BOULENGER (part.) 1896 : Oxyropus [sic] maculatus BOULENGER 1896 : Pseudoboa cloelia - SERIÉ 1921 : Pseudoboa occipitolutea - SERIÉ 1936 : Clelia clelia clelia - DUNN 1944 : Clelia clelia groomei GREER 1965 : Clelia occipitolutea - PETERS & OREJAS-MIRANDA 1970 : Clelia clelia clelia - GASC & RODRIGUES 1980 : Clelia clelia - SCHWARTZ & HENDERSON 1991: 595 : Clelia clelia clelia - CEI 1993 : Clelia clelia - LINER 1994 : Boiruna maculata - LEYNAUD & BUCHER 1999: 15 : Clelia clelia plumbea (WIED 1820) : Coluber plumbea WIED-NEUWIED 1820 : Subspecies: : Clelia clelia clelia (DAUDIN, 1803) : Clelia clelia plumbea (Wied 1820) : Clelia clelia immaculata SMITH 1942 (status unclear) : Family: : Serpentes: Colubridae snakes : Distribution: : Mexico (Yucatan), Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, : Nicaragua ?, Honduras, Costa Rica, Panama, : Colombia, French Guiana, Venezuela, NW-Ecuador, Bolivia, Uruguay, : N-Argentina (Mendoza, La Pampa, Entre Rios, Jujuy, Misiones), : Brazil (Rio Grande do Sul ?), : Lesser Antilles: Dominica, St. Lucia, Grenada, Trinidad : Comment: : Clelia occipitolutea has been synonymized with Clelia clelia clelia by Scrocci and Vinas (1990). Clelia plumbea is treated as valid species by de Lema (1994). Synonymy following that of CEI 1993. : photo: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~pzani/snakes.html : photo: http://www.omnh.ou.edu/personnel/herpetology/vitt/PEGM.html : photo: http://faculty.washington.edu/uetz/herp/photos/Clelia_clelia_Belize.jpg : References: : Daudin, F.-M. 1803 : Histoire Naturelle Generale et Particuliere des Reptiles. Vol. 6. : F. Dufart, Paris. : Scrocchi ,G. and Vinas, M. 1990 : El género Clelia (Serpentes: Colubridae) en la República Argentina: Revisión y comentários : Boll. Mus. Reg. Sci. Nat. Torino 8: 487-499 : de Lema, Th. 1994 : Lista comentada dos répteis occorentes nor Rio Grande do Sul, Brasil. : Comun. Mus. Cienc. Tecnol. PUCRS, Sér. Zool., Porto Alegre 7: 41-150 : Smith, Hobart 1942 : Mexican herpetological miscellany. : Proceedings of the United States National Museum 92 (3153): 349-395 : Gasc & Rodrigues 1980 : Liste preliminaire des Serpents de la Guyane francaise. : Bull. Mus. Nat. Hist. Nat. Paris 2 (4): 559-598 : Schwartz,A. & Henderson,R.W. 1991 : Amphibians and Reptiles of the West Indies : University of Florida Press, Gainesville, 720 pp. : Leynaud, Gerardo C. and Enrique H. Bucher 1999 : La fauna de serpientes del Chaco Sudamericano: diversidad, distribución geografica y estado de conservación. : Academia Nacional de Ciencias Miscelanea (98):1-46 : Subj: Clelia : Date: 1/29/01 1:57:33 PM US Mountain Standard Time : From: wildlife@sisna.com (Fauna) : Reply-to: wildlife@sisna.com : To: azdiadophis@aol.com : Hello John, : Got your message...pleased to make your acquaintance. I wish I could be : of some help regarding the Clelia, but I've been entirely out of the : live animal business for several years. Your best bet would probably be : to to keep checking with Glades Herp or some of the other Florida : importers, since shipments still arrive occasionally from Nicaragua, : Honduras, Guyana, and Surinam. If I hear of any Clelia I'll certainly : let you know. : Take care, : Louie : Subj: Re: j. gunn: looking for Clelia (Musarranas) : Date: 12/25/00 8:15:41 PM US Mountain Standard Time : From: c-b@lycos.com (CAPTIVE BREEDING) : Reply-to: c-b@lycos.com : To: AZDiadophis@aol.com : Dear Mr. Gunn: : Thank you for your interest in Captive Breeding. We are the only commercial source for snakes from Peru. Presently, our authorization, signed by the Minister of Agriculture, permits us to breed in captivity only Boa constrictor, Epicrates cenchria and Corallus caninus. We have been waiting for another authorization from the Ministry of Agriculture to breed every species of snake in the country. There are over 200 species. When this happens, we can say that we will be able to suppy your needs with captive bred specimens. Until then. : Sincerely, : Ryan Richards : Manager - Owner : Captive Breeding : Iquitos, Peru : Subj: Re: mussurana, ringneck, etc. : Date: 1/20/01 5:18:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time : From: ratsnakehaven@voyager.net (Terrence Cox) : To: AZDiadophis@aol.com : John, : Louis Porras, is a pretty famous herper. I think he was in Utah last I : heard. He'll be at the IHS Meeting in Detroit, MI. July 14-17th, 2001. : He'll be speaking on, "Rattlesnakes of the Colorado Plateau". Check : kingsnake.com/IHS, or e-mail, Stan Draper, sdraper7@home.com, for info about IHS, or Louis P. : I'm in Northern Michigan, but we have a winter home in Green Valley, AZ. I try to get there a couple times a year right now, but will spend the winters there after I retire, in about seven yrs. : Terry : Terrence M. Cox : ----- Original Message ----- : From: <AZDiadophis@aol.com> : To: <ratsnakehaven@voyager.net> : Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 9:10 AM : Subject: Re: mussurana, ringneck, etc. : : > Terry, talked w/ Mr. Cohen Last nite, the ph # was still good! He no : longer has his Clelia, nor knows where they now are, tho he did breed them. He thinks he got them from a Luis Porra, does that name ring a bell?? : > : > The nightsnakes are related to the ringnecks according to Troy Hibbits; Masters Thesis regarding Diadophis. The others you named, I'm not sure tho by being xenodontine would link them at some pt. : > : > I've got Glades Herps trying to locate Clelia too, so eventually I hope to locate em! : > : > Thnx for your interest & assistance. : > : > What part of the country are you in? Im in the Phoenix area, close to the Feldners. : > : > Take care, John Gunn : : Subj: mussurana, ringneck, etc. : Date: 1/18/01 3:43:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time : From: ratsnakehaven@voyager.net (Terrence Cox) : To: AZDiadophis@aol.com : heheheh, funny joke. : Glad to help, John. The mussuranas are interesting in that they may have evolutionary offshoots, as you suggested, maybe the ringnecks. I think there's other possibilities too. I've never been into the neotropical : snakes that much, except from a distance, but it'd be interesting (if I were younger) to collect and compare examples from different genuses. Wonder how : closely related the tantilla, night snakes, and maybe ninia are to the : ringnecks and mussuranas, along with pseudoboa and other neotropics?? Good : luck and keep in touch with your research, etc.. : Terry : John Gunn : azdiadophis@aol.com : : January 16, 2001 : Greetings Robroy, : I am the fellow desiring to acquire a pair or trio (2 Females) of Mussuranas (Clelia clelia or Clelia Occiptolutea). : I am willing to pay up to 150. per normal healthy specimen of any size, as well as shipping from Florida to Arizona. : I would appreciate you requesting your S. American suppliers to attempt to obtain these snakes. : I also appreciate your offer to keep me in your database as a potential customer for this species. : I assume you folks make a positive ID on the snakes you import to insure they are what the supplier thinks they are. I say this because I believe juvenile Clelia are somewhat similar to some of the elapids roaming the equatorial bush! : I look forward to doing business with you, : Sincerely, : : John Gunn : TC, thnx for your post. I see another lad fruitlessly searched for them a year back & like my posts, his generated no apparent response. Any chance you remember the NY fellows name or email domain? : I've actually located a breeder in Uruguay! But am currently stymied on how to legally import them. Any input from someone experienced in that arena would be appreciated : Apparently these monsters are docile w/humans beyond belief, even large wild specimens, rough handled, will not bite! : I would expect them to appeal to the indigo fans. : Ah well, good things come to he who waits.... : cheers, john gunn : : Some years back, maybe almost ten, there were a few going 'round. A guy from N. Y. bred them and I almost bought a few. Don't think he has them anymore. Haven't heard anything since then. Constricting and rear-fanged, kinda' potent I believe. : Hello David, I hope Santa was good to you. My daughter did alright, but I'm holding off for your snakes! I'll append in [ ] where needed... : HELLO JOHN, I'LL ANSER IN BLOCK LETTTERS : Hi John, thank you for the info you mailed. [De nada]DO YOU SPEAK SPANISH? [En mi cabeza...es posible, pero en reality....mi espanol es despacio, imperfecta y terible!] : AGAIN, ITS PROBABLY NOT EXACTLY THE SAME SNAKE. THESE GUYS MATE IN : JUNE, THIS MEANS 50´S, CERTAINLY NOT TROPICAL [Interesting... 50's ???? I thought Uruguay was primarily tropical, by your latitude & proximity to the ocean your climate must be near perfect] : I HAVE SHIPPED -NOT TO THE US- FOR 150 EACH IN QTYS OF 5 OR MORE WHEN I HAD PURE NORMALS, PLS UNDERSTAND POSSIBLE HETEROS FOR PIEBALD SHOULD BE HIGHER. MANY NOT SO USUAL COLUBRIDS (WHICH MEANS "ONLY" A COUPLE HUNDRED ARE HATCHED IN A GIVEN YEAR IN THE US) COST 75-100, HERE I HAVE A HANDFUL, DON'T YOU THINK THEY ARE WORTH MORE THAN THAT? [Starting at the end, yes they're worth more....unfortunately they are just part of the expense & the total cost is what limits my budget (& keeps my wife speaking to me!). Do you know any other distributors that ship to the USA that these could ship these with? Im pretty sure US Customs will require some sort of official documents with them, maybe I need to call them & see what I would need to do. Somehow, I know they won't have a clue! Ideally they would come to me from your airport Approximately how much would your shipping costs be? Do you ship out of Montevideo, Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo???][I've contacted some importers here to see what they would need to charge to receive the shipment, assuming I cannot] : Perhaps I can sweeten the deal by directing additional customers your way or functioning as a USA contact point for you???] I WOULD BE HAPPY IF WE CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN, BUT I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND MY LINE OF REASONING [I do & suggest we meet half way at $125.] : Which Clelia species and subspecies are your?] OFFICIALLY THEY ARE C. OCCIPITOLUTEA, AND DEFINITELY HATCHLING PATTERN AND COLOR IS DIFFERENT FROM BRAZILIAN CLELIA [The juvenile pattern interests but does not concern me, all I am after is big black mussaranas when they are grown!] : Do you have any plans to return in the near future?]I WOULD ENJOY CHATTING WITH YOU, I DON'T KNOW WHEN OR IF I WILL BE THAT WAY SOON. I DO FLY TO DAYTONA(PREVIOUSLY ORLANDO) REPTILE EXPO FROM TIME TO TIME. [It would be nice if you were able to bring them with you] : : BY THE WAY, A FRIEND JUST CALLED: HE BOUGHT A STRIPED BOTHROPS ALTERNATUS AND IS OFFERING IT TO ME. I DON'T KEEP DANGEROUS SNAKES, BUT WILL TRY TO SELL IT [You should keep it with the Clelia to make sure it feels appreciated!] : _______________________________________________________________________ : Posted by Wolfgang Wuster on January 20, 1999 at 09:11:42: : In Reply to: Re: Is Clelia clelia really harmless? posted by york on January 20, 1999 at 05:34:36: : : : : I know that mussaranas are rear-fanged and extremely docile, but aren't the adults capable of delivering a dangerous bite? Obviously, the juvenile that Ben saw was not a threat to him. However, I have read in several books (including "A Field Guide to the Snakes of Belize")that adults can be dangerous. This topic has always interested me because as a well-intentionned (but ignorant) teenager, I bought a large, handsome mussarana believing it to be harmless. I naively carried it around my mother's house as if it were just a big kingsnake. Not until years later did I read that perhaps I had been foolish and lucky. : They are normally treated as harmless because even adults do not normally bite when handled. : There are two reports of envenomation: : Pinto et al (1991) reported on a 4 year-old girl bitten in Brazil, who suffered extensive swelling and discolouration of the arm. : Chippaux (1986) mentioned haemorrhagic, necrotic and inflammatory symptoms in a table, but without giving details or case histories. : I guess that, in these sue-happy times, one should not use the word harmless for something like this. Basically, treat it like you would a hognose - most people freehandle them without problems, occasionally someone gets a sore arm. You can decide whether you want to worry about it. : : On a side note: "A Field Guide to the Snakes of Belize" states that the mussarana is known only from the hardwood forests of the Belize, Cayo, and Stann Creek districts. It does not mention the Toledo district where Ben saw the juvenile. So, it is either an oversight or maybe, Ben, your photograph and notes would be of interest to the Belize Zoo, which sponsors the field guide. : It is not very surprising that it should occur in Toledo as well - this appears to be one of the less-well studied areas of the country. : Cheers, : Wolfgang : References: : Pinto, R.N.L., N.J. da Silva, Jr., & S.D. Aird. 1991. Human envenomation by the South American Opisthoglyph Clelia clelia plumbea. Toxicon, 29:1512-1516. : Chippaux, J.-P. 1986. Les Serpents de la Guyane Française. Editions ORSTOM, Paris. : : Subj: Etymology of Clelia : Date: 1/9/01 10:54:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time : From: ENVIROHERP : To: AZDiadophis : John, : Here is correspondence between me and Wolfgang Wüster. I am not giving up. : Jerry : ENVIROHERP@aol.com wrote: : > Wolfgang, A Happy and Healthy New Year to you and yours. Not long ago, I sent you a query about Clelia and whether they are venomous. This is becoming a matter of interest and I tried discovering the etymology of both Clelia and Mussurana. I have searched my literature collection and the internet but have had no luck. I also looked through Brown's "Composition of Scientific Names," : hoping to discover the background of the word "Clelia" but had no luck there. : > Bottom line - do you know the etymology of either Clelia or Mussurana or both? I tend to think Mussurana is from a S. AM. aboriginal language but I don't know. : Thanks in advance, : > Jerry Feldner : Hi Jerry, : Thanks for the good wishes - same to you and yours - did I respond to your initial Clelia query? Can't remember off the top of my head. : I don't know where the name Clelia comes from - I have heard of it as a : girl's name in Spanish, but rather doubt that that is the real explanation. : Mussurana is almost certainly the Tupi-Guarani Indian name for this snake -this is also its common name in Brazil. Tupi-Guarani is the Indian language : group that was spoken in southern and eastern Brazil. Guarani remains one of two official languages in Paraguay! Many of the aboriginal names of : snakes from Brazil are tupi-guarani, for instance jararaca, jararacussu, caissaca and others. In modern Brazilian Portuguese, many native animals still carry these aboriginal names, reminders of a culture largely wiped out by the Portuguese. : Clelia are great snakes - you don't often get beautiful 2 metre colubrids which can be picked up without attempting to bite even upon first capture! : Are you planning to get some? : Best wishes, : Wolfgang : -- : Dr. Wolfgang Wüster - Lecturer : School of Biological Sciences Tel: +44 1248 382301 : University of Wales Fax: +44 1248 371644 : Bangor LL57 2UW E-mail: w.wuster@bangor.ac.uk : Wales, UK http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/ : Jerry, Jerry, Jerrrrrry! : Good work; engaging der volf-gang in the search for clelia! Results should be forthcoming as he undoubtedly has a colony stashed in his submarine with his other opistoglyphs! : Interesting that he referenced a girls name, as I actually know of a Clelia but she is Italian (and is curious of my eventual discovery), thus my horrible post on the Italian forum. I dont think Mussarana is an Indian word but suspect it may well be Portuguese. If you intend to ask Vitt for assistance in locating a source of them, you might query him about the nomenclature too, he must have an established network in Brazil to route the request through. : Would you ask his rearfanged-ness if he is aware of any sources in Europe, and what would be the process to export to the USA. : Thank you for your assistance & by the way, I thoroughly enjoyed your Leopard/Baja piece's in the Monitor. : PS we otta discuss the new G7F "Strategic Plan" have you read the herp section....? : Saludos, juan : Hello David, I've appended my last communique as a reminder of where we were! : I am not wanting us to get bogged down on the price, its the problem of getting them here that seems vexing. I've emailed a number of big importers to see if they would handle this & they act like its never been done before???? Perhaps to get your snakes to another S. American exporter that regularly ships to the USA is the way to proceed??. : I look forward to hearing from you. : Cheers, John Gunn : : Subj: Clelia clelia : Date: 3/3/02 6:03:14 AM US Mountain Standard Time : From: jilldwight@sympatico.ca (Dwight Sayers) : To: azdiadophis@aol.com : Mussaranna are extremely intresting and slightly evil looking snakes. Their small beady eyes and gun metal black bodies for me, enhance that evil look. Hi jg it is Dwight Sayers replying to your posting. The Clelia that I had, were years ago, back in early 80's - early 90's. Two were wild caught animals, the other was raised from a baby, which get this was rescued from a pet store on the outskirts of Toronto, Canada, thats were I live. I raised that animal to 7.5 ft. It would consume mice as readily as snakes. In fact its first mouse kill was done by itself. No scenting needed! I kept my animals on cypress mulch with pcs. of mahogany plywood on top. They would crawl under these during the day. At night out they would come searching for food, quite an appetite. Every few days they were sprayed down, and fed once a week or so. Cage temp. was kept in the low 80's during the day and low 70'sduring the night. One of the w/c died after two years in captivity. Just found it curled up dead one day. THe captive born and raised individual went to a fellow you might know by the name of robert or bob, can't remeber his last name. I think Terry Vandeventer knows him. But apparently he had no luck breeding. Oh by the way all mine were males, I coud never lay my hands on a female and I looked everywhere. Good luck in your search. I remember at the Shed in Miami, florida Joe would sometimes have the odd Mussaranna around. I remember seeing one that was from southern south america which was jet shiny black. THe ones from central america tend to be gun metal black. They are truly worth getting and breeding!!!!!!!!!!!!! If this happens in your life time, let me know and keep me in mind for babies. Note: Tom Crutchfield used to get them on occasion at his shop in Fort Myers. I remeber seeing a few there. Oh one more thing let me know if you are familar with this Bob fellow who has/had this breeding colony of Clelia. What do you keep????..Bye 4 now..Dwight : Posted by dwight on September 10, 2001 at 16:33:57: : In Reply to: Re: check this out posted by Terry Vandeventer on September 09, 2001 at 08:55:01: : thanks terry for confirming this..about fifteen years ago, i raised a a neonate mussarana to a 7ft monster..i live in toronto, canada and we found some in a pet store!!!!..they were trying to feed them crickets..don't ask me how they got there..you are right, they get long and heavy and are extremely powerful, the ultimate snake predator in the snake world..steel coils is the only way to describe it..kingsnakes pale in comparison..after six months of feeding this baby on garter, dekay and water snakes i decided to put a mouse in with it one night when the lights in the cage had switched off..within in a couple of minutes there was a bang on the cage glass and low and behold the snake was coiled around the mouse which it later consumed..from that day on it would eat pre killed mice as readily as snakes..the only problem was that the mice had to be fairly small, as the gape of a mussarana is not tremendous...bye 4 now

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