Species Survival Programs, hybrids, Pet market and more...

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: : Symantics & definitions not withstanding; Private captive breeding, as it appears you are aware Doug, has very rarely (if ever) factored in to any spps. "recovery". This is done for fun & profit: to make pets. I would never encourage you do do it, but I think theres a place for creating live art for those who want to do it. I've done it w/ rosy boas, (none were released). : : If it is done w/ Drymarchon's, then its valid fodder for this forum! None of us have to like all the possible topics. One day I am hopefully going to report the behavioral interactions between getulus & the guardians, this will require lethal experimentation; nasty to some, fascinating to me & perhaps others. : : P.S.; biology textbooks used to define hybrids as the generally sterile offspring of 2 sibling spps. : : Keep on post'n; jg : : : : : A "captively" created ssp. cross is not an intergrade. : : : The AZA, American Zoo and Aquarium Association, or in other words, the people that run the zoos in this country, DO NOT recognize the offspring of subspecies crossed with another subspecies as "intergrades". The only way to have captive bred intergrades is to have the captive offspring of wild intergrades. Unless you capture a pair of wild intergrade couperi x erebennus and breed them (or breed their offspring), You CANNOT captively produce a true intergrade. : : : Much of the misunderstanding of the term hybrid. All intergrades are hybrids, but not all hybirds are intergrades. As far as the AZA goes, the definition of a hybrid is the cross of different SUBspecies or higher. : : : The herp industry will call it an "intergrade" if you were to cross a Texas Indigo with an Eastern Indigo because the motivation for the industry is money. But an AZA recognized Zoo would consider it as a hybrid refuse to breed it. We should accept the higher standard of the biologists that run the AZA. : : : Since I have some interest in Diamond Pythons, I'll use them as another example. All those Diamond/Jungle Carpet Crosses out there? All Hybrids. Not a true intergrade to be found in the US, unless of course you've managed to sneak some w/c intergrade into the country, and the folks who would do that aren't talking. : : : Not many years ago, the AZA ruled that any cross of Asiatic and African Lions (ssp x ssp)was a hybrid and should not be used for breeding. This is the same level of cross as the Eastern and Texas Indigos. : : : "Crime against Nature"? I think this belittles the aversion most of us have to crossing these animals by associating it with something vague and seemingly abhorent. I don't know what a "Crime Against Nature" is, but the ranges of the 2 ssp.'s in question do not overlap now. So it is something that naturally isn't happening and hasn't probably for many years. : : : There is NO valid reason to start crossing them now. Unless one considers the polution of the captive gene pool of an endangered species for personal monetary gain a truly valid reason. : : : We have something valuable. No real need to muck with it. : : : Doug : : : : All good points appended below, but none mentioning that... this action does not constitute a "hybrid". It might well create the monster: Drymarchon domesticus?, Also creating what would likely be a most beautiful & vigorous cribo-negro. : : : : Biologically, the Forest Guardians appear to integrade on many boundaries. In warmer climes, not so long ago, the texicans & easterns likely interfaced too. I thus suggest this action is less than the infamous crime against nature! : : : : Its not like anybodys going to release them anyway. But if/when this intergrade is made, hopefully...the individuals involved will represent them as such & paperwork accompanies them as it should.. : : : : The thought that the gumment might choose to have no interest in them... is definitely appealing...tho I predict they would save themselves the hassle & treat them all as easterns anyway! : : : : cheers & beers, jg : : : : : : : : Hybridizing to skirt a law that has been put into place.. : : : : : : : : Posted by Fredrick Albury on January 02, 2002 at 23:33:13: : : : : In Reply to: (forum mover) What does everyone think about... posted by A.C. on January 02, 2002 at 12:31:16: : : : : : crossing an eastern indigo with a Texas indigo??? : : : : : This hybridization is commonpractice with the crocadillian guys because you don't need special permits to transport hybrids across state lines. : : : : : Has anyone ever done it? Anyone have any pics? I think it would be wild to see. : : : : : I know alot of you would say that it would "cheapen" the offspring...but it depends...from solely a marketing standpoint, it would make moving the babies easier and FASTER... : : : : : I myself would like to own some pure snakes before trying this, but I wonder what some of you vet indigo keepers think about this venture. : : : : : : : Probably the single most offensive thing that I have heard about Drymarchon in quite a while. : : : : With the exception of the gentleman that posted here a while back about the Indigo/Mexican Black king crosses. : : : : In short, why should breeders of Eastern Indigos compromise the genetic integrity of their snakes just to skate under the wire of a federal law? : : : : Marketability? : : : : Not a good enough reason. : : : : True 100% pure Eastern Indigos are not hard to sell. True the shipping can be held up for the permit process, but then waiting isnt such a bad thing. : : : : Remember when you had to wait WEEKS to get a price list sent to you in the mail? : : : : Nowadays you can look it up INSTANTLY. : : : : The waiting and the thinking have been removed somewhat...and the anticipation also. : : : : So, the permit process gives the buyer time to think about his purchase, anticpate it, and prepare for it. : : : : Why hybridize our snakes just to get past that? : : : : I personally think that the diffrences in the various indigo subspecies make them unique. : : : : why muddy it? : : : : Like boa breeder have done? : : : : Like Pituophis breeders have done? : : : : Like python breeders have done? : : : : Lets be different. : : : : : : : : Fred Albury : : : : (Aztec Reptiles) : : OK, time for me to chime in with my two cents here goes: : As a former Keeper for the San Diego Wild Animal Park and Zoo, and a member of AZA, I have worked on numerous projects that were labeled SSP(Species Survival Programs) These were given top priority and funding and for good reason. : NO, captive reproduction of endangered and threatened animals does not guarantee their survival in the weild. Large tracks of wild habitat MUST be preserved in order for reintroduction programs to be truly effective. : In Lieu of this however, in a truly worst case scenario, Zoo stock and quitefrequently Breeder/Hobbyist stock may end up being the only viable population of any animal that is targeted for SSP programs. With the enviornment destroyed, : these captive bred animals may be the ONLY ones availabkle for future generations to even see. this is a sad and stark reality, especially with the number of people here and our ever growing need to produce comerece for ourselves by building more and more houses, strip malls and theme parks. : At that point, there is no "innocent" hybridization of endangered animals. It robs future generations of what is their right(Right to see these creaturesin the wild, but failing that the right to beable to at least VIEW REAL onees in captivity) : Rosy boas? Rosy boas are easily bred, not rare, and prices have plummeted. Rosies are some ofmy fav. snakes I have some, but Rosies are not Drymarchon. I have bought rosies at shows only to find out that they were MUTTS after raising them for 2+yrs and breeding them. Go figure. : I agree with your corn/King hybrid theory, but frankly i am not bothered to much by it, because I knowq that those snakes have been so tampered with that it is redundant at this point to cal foul. : Drymarchon have not. : Lets try to keep it this way. : Just my thoughts. : : Fred

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