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Posted by Les4toads on May 07, 2003 at 18:11:44:
In Reply to: What would really help Horned Lizards. posted by Cable_Hogue on May 07, 2003 at 17:19:24:
:::Jeff, you are making major assumptions that are not based on any kind of fact. Where is your logical and/or legal argument? Do you have any idea of the legal argument in the Appeals Court concerning the Flattail Horned Lizard issue? I doubt it seriously! The issue that has stopped the listing of the Flattail Horned Lizard is not a scientific issue. The "best available science" has in the past, and continues to support the listing. The political issue is what is in question. There is also the issue of people violating laws that are on the books: 1) illegal collection, 2) habitat destruction by trespass, 3) wildlife management issues (lack of law enforcement, lack of funding, etc).
:::If there are folks "playing scientist," Jeff, it is you! I do not see you in the field doing the work. I do not see you providing the "best available science" and providing constructive alternatives or methodology. You plagerize other's work and present it as your own on this forum and that is wrong!
:::Your issue of purchasing habitat to protect populations of horned lizards is legitimate. I support that issue, but the habitats are not safe unless law enforcement and wildlife management are in place. The California Condor issue is just one such example. (Some idiot likes to go out and shoot birds with his rifle and kills a protected species, a California Condor. They find him finally and now he has to go through the court system for breaking the law. It just some "damned bird!" If the law is not enforced the way it should be, what next?).
:::I see "Open Space" and "Protected Areas" violated constantly. Some idiot feels that it is his "right" to ride his dirtbike where ever he wants. So much for "protected areas!"
:::Just what is your background in law, Jeff? From conversations and other communications, you are really selective on what value laws have. I really wonder just why it is you think laws have no value. Are you violating that many yourself? If you want to discuss it, call or email me. I do not want to discuss it here.
:::Just what are your credentials, Jeff? Plagerizing and name dropping do not impress me at all.
:::Lester G. Milroy III
:I don't mean to answer for Jeff here, the post is in response to his comments on the subject. But I have to say...
:I'll tell you what it is like Lester. It is like you are the anointed ruler of the HL kingdom and all here are your loved but stupid subjects. Of course this kingdom is in your own mind. You do have some impressive credentials. But credentials like yours are not what everyone must have to enjoy HL's and to get on a hobby forum like this and talk about their thoughts, experiences and the info they have gathered. Your input is very valuable here and I would love to learn more about cycles and hormones and everything else that is available. Let's just enjoy this forum for what it is. Not a scientific meeting place to discuss HL data (although that may fit at times) but a place for all of us to learn and grow in the hobby and by doing so promote the health and well-being of both captive and wild animals.
:You obviously have different politics than myself and there is a place for us both.
:Again, cheers to all.
:My own kingdom? "Yeah, right!" as they say. People want answers, true and factual, in an attempt to keep animals that are unique and exciting. I attempt to answer those questions with the best historic and current available science, research and experience. Then, there are others that, for some reason, make attempts to negate that information by remarks and comments that lack any foundation, except ego (I guess). Most people do not know what is going on in the "wild" because they are not out there and witnessing first-hand what is happening. I share that information so people are aware. I have nothing to gain! The agenda I have is to attempt to make sure that the future will support these unique and exciting animals, because what I see is not a positive slope in the equation.
:Yes, you have your opinion, just like Jeff, but what is your experience? What are you looking for in your presentation? I do the best I can to help folks with horned lizards, even though they may be a protected species. I make attempts to allow the horned lizards to not only survive, but prosper, in captivity. The horned lizards, throughout their ranges, are in jeopardy. The reasons are many, but the bottom line is simply the lack of information, true and factual.
:Lester G. Milroy III