Re: Eastern Hogs and Mice.....

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Posted by Colchicine on April 12, 2002 at 17:32:58:

In Reply to: Eastern Hogs and Mice..... posted by Mack on April 11, 2002 at 18:52:42:

Many of the regulars are not surprised to see me post I am sure. And I follow the same line that erik w and Paul have gone.

I have big problems with the statements that you made concerning the death of your snakes and the feeding of mice. First, did you have a necropsy done to PROVE your easterns died of fatty liver disease? Where they wild caught? If so, did you have them thoroughly checked by a vet and put on a deworming treatment? What were the specifics of your setup? What I am getting at, is how are we supposed to know if the hognoses that you had were wild caught, stressed out from capture and captivity, filled with parasites, poisoned by eating frogs that were sitting in a puddle of antifreeze, kept at too low/high of a temperature, stressed out by kids tapping on the glass and handled too often?

On top of that, I find it VERY hard to believe that an eastern would die only a few days or weeks after being fed mice. Even the people who promote the fatty liver disease concern only mention an eventual accumulation of fatty deposits in the liver, this phenomenon does not occur immediately after their first mouse. Your theory does not explain how two easterns in my care have lived off of mice for the past 10 yrs. What in the world would be the difference between fresh killed and f/t?

Without a necropsy from a herp experienced vet, there is NO way to tell what those snakes died from. Like erik w has observed, there has been no evidence to support the fatty liver disease issue here, or in any other literature I have searched in. I am glad to hear that Paul is willing to plunk down some $ for an explanation. But if his snake is only 6 or so months old, he's got another 15 yrs to worry about that!

I don't dispute that mice are fattier than frogs, but I don't believe that mice are TOO fatty for hognoses. The stool of the hognoses I take care of don�t look any different from any other colubrid, I presume they are perfectly capable of digesting the mice.

I don't want to discourage you for posting your opinion and asking for other's opinions, but I can assure you that feeding mice won't cause a death directly. I do insist however, that if you are losing that many hognoses without an obvious explanation, that you evaluate your setup to find out what is going wrong. And invest some money into getting the snakes checked out by a vet, it would be worth it. And along the same lines as my amphibian conservation standpoint, if you are loosing that many, just leave them in the wild for them to eat frogs on their own and let them be eaten by frogs themselves!

*Humans aren't the only species on earth... we just act like it.

*"In the end we will conserve only what we love;
we will love only what we understand;
and we will understand only what we are taught."

Baba Dioum,
Senegalese ecologist

*"The rattlesnake may be esteemed an emblem of vigilance. She never begins an attack, or, when once engaged, never surrenders. She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity & true courage. She never wounds until she has generously given notice even to her enemy, and cautioned against the danger of treading upon her."
-- Pennsylvania Journal, December 1775

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: Many of the regulars are not surprised to see me post I am sure. And I follow the same line that erik w and Paul have gone. : I have big problems with the statements that you made concerning the death of your snakes and the feeding of mice. First, did you have a necropsy done to PROVE your easterns died of fatty liver disease? Where they wild caught? If so, did you have them thoroughly checked by a vet and put on a deworming treatment? What were the specifics of your setup? What I am getting at, is how are we supposed to know if the hognoses that you had were wild caught, stressed out from capture and captivity, filled with parasites, poisoned by eating frogs that were sitting in a puddle of antifreeze, kept at too low/high of a temperature, stressed out by kids tapping on the glass and handled too often? : On top of that, I find it VERY hard to believe that an eastern would die only a few days or weeks after being fed mice. Even the people who promote the fatty liver disease concern only mention an eventual accumulation of fatty deposits in the liver, this phenomenon does not occur immediately after their first mouse. Your theory does not explain how two easterns in my care have lived off of mice for the past 10 yrs. What in the world would be the difference between fresh killed and f/t? : Without a necropsy from a herp experienced vet, there is NO way to tell what those snakes died from. Like erik w has observed, there has been no evidence to support the fatty liver disease issue here, or in any other literature I have searched in. I am glad to hear that Paul is willing to plunk down some $ for an explanation. But if his snake is only 6 or so months old, he's got another 15 yrs to worry about that! : I don't dispute that mice are fattier than frogs, but I don't believe that mice are TOO fatty for hognoses. The stool of the hognoses I take care of don�t look any different from any other colubrid, I presume they are perfectly capable of digesting the mice. : I don't want to discourage you for posting your opinion and asking for other's opinions, but I can assure you that feeding mice won't cause a death directly. I do insist however, that if you are losing that many hognoses without an obvious explanation, that you evaluate your setup to find out what is going wrong. And invest some money into getting the snakes checked out by a vet, it would be worth it. And along the same lines as my amphibian conservation standpoint, if you are loosing that many, just leave them in the wild for them to eat frogs on their own and let them be eaten by frogs themselves! : *Humans aren't the only species on earth... we just act like it. : *"In the end we will conserve only what we love; : we will love only what we understand; : and we will understand only what we are taught." : Baba Dioum, : Senegalese ecologist : *"The rattlesnake may be esteemed an emblem of vigilance. She never begins an attack, or, when once engaged, never surrenders. She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity & true courage. She never wounds until she has generously given notice even to her enemy, and cautioned against the danger of treading upon her." : -- Pennsylvania Journal, December 1775

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