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Hey Ken, it's about time you quit responding to this, but...... (long)

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Posted by kerry on March 05, 2001 at 14:56:01:

In Reply to: Get a LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW I KNOW YOU KNOW "NOTHING"!! posted by Ken on March 03, 2001 at 18:06:14:

......this troublemaker does have a few VALID POINTS. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending him, and I'm not sure I would like to defend you either given the "out-of-control" way you have handled this (and besides, who said you needed my help, anyway). This isn't the first time that something like this has happened in this forum. Scroll down to a post by Adam on 5/24/'00 to see what I mean. The FIRST POINT I would like to address is the BANDED/RETICULATED issue. In HIS defense I would like to say that he IS correct in his assessment that some of the lizards you are calling banded DO key-out to be reticulated from a scientific point of view. In YOUR defense I would like to point out that this rule really doesn't apply anymore when it comes to captive reproduction. There is no longer any integrity in the subspecific gene pools given the fact that the current captive populations have had genetic input from wild caught specimens from all over their entire range. Even within relatively small, and somewhat isolated populations a great amount of variation can be exhibited. Case in point: Utah's cinctum population. It is generally accepted that the "prettiest" cinctum come from there. While it is true, there are some individuals that show a great reduction in black, this has proven to be more the exception than the rule. I have seen easily as many "BUTT UGLY" gilas there as well. Most of them fall into the same category as the Yavapai Co., Arizona specimens. Still further south in Pima Co., Arizona it is not only possible but highly likely that any of the gilas you may see in the wild could have a very banded appearance, but usually with the black predominating. To put a "WRAP" on this point I would like to say that in the case of subspecific recognition in captive breeding colonies the scientific rules should probably no longer apply. Beauty (and value, for that matter) is truly in the eye of the beholder. Call them whatever you want, or whatever you can get away with. The SECOND POINT I would like to address is the origin of captive populations. The belief that all of the gilas we have in captivity today are a result of hard work through totally legal means is not only FOOLISH, but completely OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY. Gila Monsters have been flowing out of the Arizona desert like blood gushing from a deep wound for decades!!! Because they are not an endangered species they are harder to control and the protection laws on the state level are harder to enforce. They then are used to produce that first "documented" generation (if the possessor is lucky) and most likely moved somewhere down the road. Here "JL" is correct. You need only to have seen a few wild gilas to understand where he is coming from when he points to one of your album photos. Usually a wild gila will have a tail no heavier than the width of its pelvis, and usually have a "dirty" look to it. The one he points out does appear to have a relatively thin tail, and some obviousely old "dirty" skin still to be shed-off. This condition can and does also exist on specimens that are under fed and kept on gravel substrate, even if they are captive produced; a point in your defense. But it can and does appear very suspect. Putting a "WRAP" on point two I would like to say that crying about where the gilas came from is MOOT. Once they are in captivity they are no longer suitable for return to the wild anyway, given the possibility of them picking up some pathogen that they can then infect the wild populations with. The best place to protect a wild animal is IN THE WILD. But I fully support busting some one after the fact, but only if you can prove it!!! Lastly, has anyone bothered to use view/source on this "JL" guy??? I did. It might interest you all to know his posts originate from within the MARICOPA CO., ARIZONA government. "And now you know the rest of the story"...... Good-day.

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