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Posted by jared w on November 22, 2002 at 13:32:30:
In Reply to: Re: Neruotoxic properties found in Crotalus horridus horridus... posted by Jeremy G on November 18, 2002 at 12:40:01:
Sup J money,
To my knowledge some intergrades do occur here in NC. West of me near the pilot Mtn and hanging rock areas they appear to be what I would call "dirty" canebrakes. There patterns seem to be muddied and they have alot of speckling (as if they were going to be black timbers) inbetween bands with faint dorsal stripes. Now the uwharrie forest ones look alot like normal canes for the most part though you can find muddy ones occasionally as well. As for the western sp. the ones from s. illinois and nebraska both resemble canes alot. They have nice dorsals and reach larger lengths than your VA MD "true"timbers but they inhabit high elevations of rocky outcrops and unlike the lowland canes who den up alone or in groups of 2-3 the western variations will den up in large numbers much like MD timbers who can den up in groups over 100. I too differentiate between the two and the western variations confuse me the most as they have traits of both. Hollar at me, I have a pine snake for ya,
:Thanks for the info on S.c.catenatus! I had never heard that before. Interesting indeed.
:As for horridus, the reason I think locality may be important is because here in the Mid Atlantic, too the best of my knowledge, what are defined as Canebrake and Timber morphs, do not intergrade at all, even in the same state. There seems to be a very defined gap between both populations, with neither entering the "No mans land" if you will. Now Ive heard others claim they do but haveing herped NC extensivly, in both Coastal and more highly elvated areas inland(though not in the Montains)there seems to be no intergrade range at all and the Canebrakes are isolated to the coastal areas, with no more Horridus specimens being found untill you reach the montains, except for a chunk of land around the Sand Hills in central NC were they have historicly been recorded. Now of cource this is only NC but I belive the case is true for SC and GA as well. Heck, I dont even think it gets hilly enough in SC or GA for what I would deem a true Timber.
:Now, with that being said for the Eastern USA, the Western part of its range is alot less clear, to me anyway. I know Eastern TX, on the gulf has what I would deem Canebrakes but once you go north from there, the habbitat associated with Canebrakes in the East is gone and your left with slightly hilly areas, untill your reach the Ozarks that is. This is what confuses me.
:BTW, I differenciate canebrakes from Timbers by Canbrakes usualy haveing cheek and dorsal stripes were it is alot more varible in Timbers, Canebrake attaining much larger sizes(5ft Canebrakes arent uncommon but youd be strikeing gold if ya found a Timber in the wild that size) and Canbrakes being associated with lower lying, swampy wet areas and Timbers being associated with hilly, rocky areas.
:Man does this debate interest the hell outa me.
:Thanks again for your input TJ!
::You made an interesting point about the "typical" habitats for each of subs. I think certain snakes can go against the grain and become quite adapted to certain landscapes. In NY, and in many other areas, s.c. catenatus is a swamp dwellar, but in Canada, there are populations that are found only in the rocky outcrops. So, I would think the whole horridus sub species thing (as confusing as it is), wouldn't really go primarily on the location aspect. Damn good question though. Comparison tests on venom, per each state, would be a great study to see how they all vary.
:::Im curious, have neruotoxic properties been found in populations of ture Timbers and if so, are the quanities the same as in GA canebrakes or less? Also, regarding the Canebrakes, are the specimens recorded for haveing neruotoxic properties in their venom mostly neruotoxic(like the Mojaves) or do they have both properties equaly present?
:::Lastly, have any test been done on the venom of South/Central western rangeing poulations of C.horridus from lets say Eastern Oklahoma and Northeastern Texas? If so, has thir been any variations in its compisition which may lead reseachers to seperate it from the other localities? I know venom relationships cant be the sole basis for seperateing a ssp but its a step.
:::With regards to the last question, the reason I ask is when I went out to OK last yr, I was informed that the horridus found in the area were Canebrakes. On inspection of habbitat, I would have to diagree and say they are Timbers. The habbitat whcih they are known from around were I was staying(North Central/Eastern Oklahoma. Just west of Tulsa)is very hilly but has no true Mountains. However, the horridus in the region were found in the hills, utilizeing the same type of cover that our classic, typical eastern Timbers do (I.E Elevated rocky out croppings)Further south, closer to the coast, you have typical Canebrakes in typical lowland habbitats and to the North, typical Timbers in the Ozarks. So what would you call this "out in limbo" population? An intergrade range perhaps?(if you belive the 2 forms to be seperate that is)The animals I saw from this local were very "Canebrake" looking in apperance, with typical dorsal stripe and eye stripes but the habbitat and size just doesnt fit the Canebrake sterotype:-)
:::Also, I remember reading awhile back that there was debate going on regarding western populations of horridus and im curious if the region I was reffering too falls into this catogory? God I wish I could remember that source.
:::Well guys, thanks to anyone who can help me more completely understand my favorite sp of Crotalus.
:::Thanks for reading!
:::All the best,