Re: Paul and dogstar.....More on this issue.......

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Posted by Paul Hollander on October 26, 2002 at 12:09:34:

In Reply to: Paul and dogstar.....More on this issue....... posted by Brian C. on October 26, 2002 at 00:03:42:

:Hi there ,
: this is my first time in this forum as i am more of a python and boa guyand spend most of my time in those forums but i do work in a reptile store and deal with just about every type there is. We also have a black rat that is pure white with red/pink eyes. I know for a fact that the father was an albino but not sure about the mother but i believe she was as well. we have been discussing this topic a lot lately trying to determine if it was a snow/blizzard black rat.

How much time are you willing to spend for the determination? About the only way I know to do it is to mate your black rat to a normal, mate the babies among themselves, and then see if something other than albino and normal assorts out in the babies.

: I am not sure how genetics work with rat snakes but i would imagine that it would be the same or similar to ball python genetics which is what i am familiar with.

Genetics is pretty similar in all species, once you get a list of mutants and the dominance relationships among the alleles.

: I have seen both T- and T+ albinos and the T- still has some pattern on it but if you look at a Snow Ball (albino x axanthic = normal looking double hets, breed these and you may get lucky and get a snow) it has no pattern at all. So this is where the confusion sets in, hehe. As i said i am not that familiar with rat snakes. Can 2 normal albinos produce a T- albino or do one of the parents have to be T-. Also would a snow/blizzard black rat be produced the same way as in ball pythons. What would a T- albino be worth? What about a Snow/Blizzard?(i say snow/blizzard because i am not sure if there is a standard set yet. Ball pythons are snows, but i know with corns there are snows and blizzards, go figure.)

I can't help on the prices. I'd have to look at price lists, and you can do that as well as I could.

There is no such thing as a normal albino, only T+ and T- albinos (AFAIK). 8-) There are three ways to breed a T- albino: mate heterozygous T- albino x heterozygous T- albino, heterozygous T- albino x T- albino, and T- albino x T- albino. Change T- to T+ in that last sentence, and you have the three matings to produce a T+ albino.

If you mate a T+ albino to a T- albino, you'd get normal-looking snakes that are heterozygous T+ albino, heterozygous T- albino. Mate two of these double hets together, and statistically 1/16 of the babies would be both T+ and T- albino. I have never seen such a snake and cannot say what it would look like. This might be one way to get a white, but I would not bet money on it.

Mating a T- albino to a T+ albino, heterozygous T- albino snake would also produce T- albinos.

You could produce a snow black rat snake by combining one of the albinos with another mutant that deletes the yellow, just as in ball pythons. Almost all I know about black rat snake genetics came out of Bechtel's paper in the Journal of Heredity back in 1985. He did not have an axanthic black rat at that time, but maybe one has turned up and been bred since. Leucistic combined with albino would do the trick, too.

Black rat snakes are found from the Atlantic Ocean to Kansas. There is a fair amount of variation. There can be high yellow and low yellow albino ball pythons due to natural variation in the original stock. The same natural variation can produce more or less yellow in albino black rat snakes. I've even seen adult wild-caught black rat snakes with traces of red between the scales.

A snow corn is produced by combining the amelanistic and anerythristic mutants in one animal. A blizzard corn is produced by combining the amelanistic and charcoal mutants in one animal. Amelanistic and charcoal are mimics -- both remove all or almost all the red/yellow pigment, though there are some minor differences.

All this boils down to I have ideas but don't know what ACTUALLY causes your white black rat snake. 8-/

Paul Hollander, Moderator, Genetics Forum, http://www.reptiletopsites.com

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