Re: Corn snake gene list

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Posted by Rich Zuchowski on August 12, 2000 at 13:59:32:

In Reply to: Re: Corn snake gene list posted by KJ on August 12, 2000 at 10:56:31:

:
: What you describe as piebald is simple recessive. Rainwater calls it calico now.

: KJ

I'm not so sure this is accurate. Back in January I requested some info from the people
that originally worked with this strain. Rather than my trying to paraphrase the answers
I got, I'll just copy the entire email here. BTW, I did get permission from Mr. Savary
to distribute this information however I see fit.

===================

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: ? about the Piebald Corn Snake
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:27:27 -0700
From: Bill Savary
To: Rich Zuchowski

Hi Rich,

I'll try to provide some answers to the points you brought up.

>Hello,
>
>A couple of weeks ago I was speaking to a gentleman by the name of Adam
>Song in New York. He mentioned that he had purchased some juvenile
>Calico corns (the name now applied by Tim Rainwater to the Piebald Corn
>snake you were (are?) working with). In this discussion, Adam mentioned
>that Tim told him that the blistering effect noted in this line was
>apparently caused by poor husbandry (lack of cage cleanliness) of the
>original stock. He mentioned that it has been discovered that taking
>care to keep the animals in a much cleaner environment reduces or
>eliminates this condition in the animals.

The original wild-caught female piebald had scars from the blistering
that
must have accompanied her depigmentation, which had occured while she
was
still in the wild. All specimens that we saw undergo the depigmentation
also showed some degree of blistering - in direct corolation with the
amount of discoloration. Blistered areas on a couple of the snakes were
examined for causitive agents, but none were found. The best guess we
were
able to come up with was that the blistering was a manifestation of an
autoimmune response to pigment or to pigment-producing cells. Only one
indication of possible environmental factors affecting the blistering
was
noted - on one female, the depigmentation, and hence the blistering,
seemed
to be more severe at warmer temperatures. This was on a female that
underwent almost total depigmentation, and the process was consistent
with
heightened autoimmune response at warmer temperatures. Cleanliness of
caging does not appear to be an issue. My wife is a microbiologist/med
tech., and is extremely cautious about hygiene issues in the animals she
keeps.

>Since I am certain Tim has not had these animals long enough to
>determine something like this, I am assuming he has gotten this
>information from you.

No, he didn't get any such information from us.

> ......................I would like to know if you can provide me with
>any further details. If the coloration of this animal can be obtained
>without blistering prior to the manifestation, I would likely be
>interested in obtaining some specimens myself to work with. Also, has
>there been any headway in getting this effect to manifest itself earlier
>than the originally mentioned 3 year time period?

The onset of depigmentation is synchronous with the snake reaching
breeding
age. You could probably speed up the process by keeping the snakes
warmer
and feeding them more heavily. However, this could accelerate any
autoimmune responses, hence defeating your efforts at minimizing
blistering.

>Is Tim Rainwater now the sole source for these animals?

We gave a small breeding colony to Warren Carbonel, and at last contact
he
was having some success at reproducing the trait. This was some time
before Tim Rainwater got his specimens. Unfortunately, I no longer have
a
means of contacting Warren. If you can locate him, he may be able to
provide you with information or specimens. We kept no piebalds for
ourselves, so we are out of the business with them.

>And lastly, does a mother and father exhibiting this trait produce 100
>percent babies that also exhibit this trait?

No. We never got to the point of being able to produce piebald
offspring
in a predictable manner. We could produce litters in which the effects
were sure to show up, but not in predictable percentages, and nothing
close
to 100%.

One other point to keep in mind - depigmentation was only one of the
effects. Some would suddenly start growing weak to the point that they
could not kill prey, and eventually were unable to eat or drink.

The symptoms were in some ways similar to lupus in humans - which
primarily
manifests in females, onset starting at sexual maturity. Depigmentation
can be the most obvious indication of onset, but a host of other
symptoms
can also be present. Lethality follows the same pattern, as well.
Lupus,
of course, is an autoimmune disease.

>Thank you for your time and any help you can give me.

Any time. I do hope someone pursues the issue of this form of
"piebaldism"
and comes up with real answers. If you do get any specimens and work
with
them, I hope you share your findings.

If you have any other questions, or care to swap ideas on the topic,
please
feel free to contact me.

Bill
================================

Mr. Savary also has a web page on this particular strain of corn snakes that
may be instructional to read:

http://www.azstarnet.com/~bsavary/feature3.html

Rich Z.

SerpenCo

Follow Ups:

calico corns.... Sammy 08/12/00 (3)
- Re: calico corns.... Rich Zuchowski 08/13/00 (2)
  - Re: calico corns.... Quicksilverfire 08/15/00 (1)
    - Re: calico corns.... Rich Zuchowski 08/15/00 (0)
Thanks. KJ 08/12/00 (0)

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Comments:
: : : : What you describe as piebald is simple recessive. Rainwater calls it calico now. : : KJ : I'm not so sure this is accurate. Back in January I requested some info from the people : that originally worked with this strain. Rather than my trying to paraphrase the answers : I got, I'll just copy the entire email here. BTW, I did get permission from Mr. Savary : to distribute this information however I see fit. : =================== : -------- Original Message -------- : Subject: Re: ? about the Piebald Corn Snake : Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:27:27 -0700 : From: Bill Savary <bsavary@azstarnet.com> : To: Rich Zuchowski <rich@serpenco.com> : Hi Rich, : I'll try to provide some answers to the points you brought up. : >Hello, : > : >A couple of weeks ago I was speaking to a gentleman by the name of Adam : >Song in New York. He mentioned that he had purchased some juvenile : >Calico corns (the name now applied by Tim Rainwater to the Piebald Corn : >snake you were (are?) working with). In this discussion, Adam mentioned : >that Tim told him that the blistering effect noted in this line was : >apparently caused by poor husbandry (lack of cage cleanliness) of the : >original stock. He mentioned that it has been discovered that taking : >care to keep the animals in a much cleaner environment reduces or : >eliminates this condition in the animals. : The original wild-caught female piebald had scars from the blistering : that : must have accompanied her depigmentation, which had occured while she : was : still in the wild. All specimens that we saw undergo the depigmentation : also showed some degree of blistering - in direct corolation with the : amount of discoloration. Blistered areas on a couple of the snakes were : examined for causitive agents, but none were found. The best guess we : were : able to come up with was that the blistering was a manifestation of an : autoimmune response to pigment or to pigment-producing cells. Only one : indication of possible environmental factors affecting the blistering : was : noted - on one female, the depigmentation, and hence the blistering, : seemed : to be more severe at warmer temperatures. This was on a female that : underwent almost total depigmentation, and the process was consistent : with : heightened autoimmune response at warmer temperatures. Cleanliness of : caging does not appear to be an issue. My wife is a microbiologist/med : tech., and is extremely cautious about hygiene issues in the animals she : keeps. : >Since I am certain Tim has not had these animals long enough to : >determine something like this, I am assuming he has gotten this : >information from you. : No, he didn't get any such information from us. : > ......................I would like to know if you can provide me with : >any further details. If the coloration of this animal can be obtained : >without blistering prior to the manifestation, I would likely be : >interested in obtaining some specimens myself to work with. Also, has : >there been any headway in getting this effect to manifest itself earlier : >than the originally mentioned 3 year time period? : The onset of depigmentation is synchronous with the snake reaching : breeding : age. You could probably speed up the process by keeping the snakes : warmer : and feeding them more heavily. However, this could accelerate any : autoimmune responses, hence defeating your efforts at minimizing : blistering. : >Is Tim Rainwater now the sole source for these animals? : We gave a small breeding colony to Warren Carbonel, and at last contact : he : was having some success at reproducing the trait. This was some time : before Tim Rainwater got his specimens. Unfortunately, I no longer have : a : means of contacting Warren. If you can locate him, he may be able to : provide you with information or specimens. We kept no piebalds for : ourselves, so we are out of the business with them. : >And lastly, does a mother and father exhibiting this trait produce 100 : >percent babies that also exhibit this trait? : No. We never got to the point of being able to produce piebald : offspring : in a predictable manner. We could produce litters in which the effects : were sure to show up, but not in predictable percentages, and nothing : close : to 100%. : One other point to keep in mind - depigmentation was only one of the : effects. Some would suddenly start growing weak to the point that they : could not kill prey, and eventually were unable to eat or drink. : The symptoms were in some ways similar to lupus in humans - which : primarily : manifests in females, onset starting at sexual maturity. Depigmentation : can be the most obvious indication of onset, but a host of other : symptoms : can also be present. Lethality follows the same pattern, as well. : Lupus, : of course, is an autoimmune disease. : >Thank you for your time and any help you can give me. : Any time. I do hope someone pursues the issue of this form of : "piebaldism" : and comes up with real answers. If you do get any specimens and work : with : them, I hope you share your findings. : If you have any other questions, or care to swap ideas on the topic, : please : feel free to contact me. : Bill : ================================ : Mr. Savary also has a web page on this particular strain of corn snakes that : may be instructional to read: : : http://www.azstarnet.com/~bsavary/feature3.html : : Rich Z.

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