Re: CITES.. and spect. camian ownership

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Posted by Bill Moss on January 21, 2002 at 21:27:33:

In Reply to: CITES.. and spect. camian ownership posted by john on January 21, 2002 at 05:21:44:

Assuming that you are speaking of spectacled (C.crocodilus) or brown (C.fuscus) you don't need an ESA permit to own one, only to sell, trade, or barter it across state lines. In other words, you can't take anything of any value for it or you are in violation of the Lacey Act - and this is serious trouble. You can take or send it across state lines as long as it is a gift or an adoption etc. You can sell it as long as it is in your same state.

The ESA requirement came about for two reasons. First, they want to allow products from Caiman yacare in to the country but because it is endangered in certain areas of it's range in SA, they needs to have a paper trail to the point of origin. Because the common, brown and yacare are very difficult to tell apart after they have been processed, they all took on the status of the most protected one. Second, the reason for the change in status of the above mentioned animals when they come to the US in the form of live animals or live eggs is because they are now considered an invasive species. You can thank your fellow "pet' owners for that one. There are currently breeding populations of caimans in South Florida.

The burden of proof is on the USFWS. Having said that, I have heard horror stories about what has happened to animals that were confiscated while an investigation was taking place. I was told by the USFWS Agent in charge of enforcement (at the DC level) that herpers are notorious for not keeping good records such as proof of purchase. He went on to say that there will be more animals that will be newly listed because of the invasive species issue as time and money allow.

To apply for a permit, go to the USFWS web site. It will tell you what you have to do. I will tell you up front that unless you can demonstrate some compelling reason that you should have one, your chances are virtually nil.

Hope this helps.

Bill

: Can anyone explain to me what I can expexct, now that my pet camian has been added to the CITES list?
: I know that I would need a Federal permit to cross state lines. Where do I apply?
: Will I need some kind of permit just to own this animal?
: How can I prove it was in my possesion before it was put on the list?

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: Assuming that you are speaking of spectacled (C.crocodilus) or brown (C.fuscus) you don't need an ESA permit to own one, only to sell, trade, or barter it across state lines. In other words, you can't take anything of any value for it or you are in violation of the Lacey Act - and this is serious trouble. You can take or send it across state lines as long as it is a gift or an adoption etc. You can sell it as long as it is in your same state. : The ESA requirement came about for two reasons. First, they want to allow products from Caiman yacare in to the country but because it is endangered in certain areas of it's range in SA, they needs to have a paper trail to the point of origin. Because the common, brown and yacare are very difficult to tell apart after they have been processed, they all took on the status of the most protected one. Second, the reason for the change in status of the above mentioned animals when they come to the US in the form of live animals or live eggs is because they are now considered an invasive species. You can thank your fellow "pet' owners for that one. There are currently breeding populations of caimans in South Florida. : The burden of proof is on the USFWS. Having said that, I have heard horror stories about what has happened to animals that were confiscated while an investigation was taking place. I was told by the USFWS Agent in charge of enforcement (at the DC level) that herpers are notorious for not keeping good records such as proof of purchase. He went on to say that there will be more animals that will be newly listed because of the invasive species issue as time and money allow. : To apply for a permit, go to the USFWS web site. It will tell you what you have to do. I will tell you up front that unless you can demonstrate some compelling reason that you should have one, your chances are virtually nil. : Hope this helps. : Bill : : Can anyone explain to me what I can expexct, now that my pet camian has been added to the CITES list? : : I know that I would need a Federal permit to cross state lines. Where do I apply? : : Will I need some kind of permit just to own this animal? : : How can I prove it was in my possesion before it was put on the list?

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